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PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
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Koifla
Senior Member
Koifla
Joined: 1 Mar 2011
Posts: 65
Location: Miami
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia with Watslow...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: w
Posted Tue Mar 1, 2011, 2:55pm
Subject: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

Hi.
I am very new to this but have a Silvia for about a month and installed the www.pidkits.com PID. Super happy with everything. Trying to understand what the brew head temp is compared to the boiler set point. I read the updated info on the kit that says on a V3 224-228F will be about right with a machine warming up.
My question is what is your experience with set point temps at the boiler and what you end up at the brew head on a Rancilio Silvia. What temps do you like?
Thank-you
Charles

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Koifla
Senior Member
Koifla
Joined: 1 Mar 2011
Posts: 65
Location: Miami
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia with Watslow...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: w
Posted Fri Mar 4, 2011, 9:17pm
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

I am surprised no one has posted an opinion on what temps they like to set their PID to.
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,254
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Fri Mar 4, 2011, 9:55pm
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

Hi Charles,

Welcome to the Coffeegeek forums! {;-)

I have a PID kit from CG member Jim Gallt that I installed I think 5 years or more ago on my 2001 Rancilio Miss Silvia V1 & was one of the early eBay buyers then. I couldn't be happier with the quality & performance of the kit & have never had a problem.

The general or default boiler offset temp at the time (& I think still is) is 25°F. The temp at the brewhead will depend on the type/s of coffees &/or degree of roast that the espresso blend best tastes, or is designed to taste best at.

Intelly's original Black Cat for example is designed to 'shine' at 199°F, so your boiler offset temp (the PID) would then be set at 224°F.
With a PID offset of 228°F, your grouphead temp would then theoretically be 203°F.

 
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JGG
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JGG
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,377
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Roaster: Hottop D w/HTC+TC4C
Posted Fri Mar 4, 2011, 10:36pm
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

Hi, Charles -

I have mine set at 223F right now.  But I always allow at least 50 minutes warm up before pulling a shot.  The recommended range of 224F to 228F anticipates that some folks will pull shots before the machine has fully warmed up.

At this setpoint, I get a brew temp of around 199F, which I happen to like for my home roasts.

Jim
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clumeng
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Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vivaldi II, 67 Cremina
Grinder: Vario, Maestro, Pharos
Vac Pot: Aeropress
Drip: Technivorm, Chemex
Posted Sat Mar 5, 2011, 8:59am
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

Koifla Said:

I am surprised no one has posted an opinion on what temps they like to set their PID to.

Posted March 4, 2011 link

This is because we can only provide a range.  (I think that 220 was where I was most of the time)  There are lots of variables with each machine that impact the final brew temp (warmup time, where the temp probe is, did you steam before the shot) so it's hard to give hard and fast rules.  At the same time, input and output variables (grind, roast, roast date, distribution, extraction percentage) overall probably have a larger impact on flavor in the cup.

What the PID did for me was take one major variable (temp) largely out of the equation as I fine tuned my technique.  I found myself adjusting the PID fairly frequently depending on the roast and date post-roast to get the right flavors ( and I know I have bad taste buds).  So make sure you experiment - there in general should be a 1:1 dropoff from what the PID set is vs what is at the group.  I was always surprised how low I could go on the temp and improve the flavor.  Try +/- 5F and see what you get with the same blend and grinding parameters and go from there.  

Now that the Temp isn't as much of a guess you should work on making the other variables consistent.  What I found...

- GET  A SCALE!  know how much is going in every time.
- Use WDT every time - this improved my consistency
- Consider a naked PF
- Consider weighing the output and calculate extraction ratios
- Save up for a better grinder.  I found that the rocky only afforded 1-2 clicks that were usable.  My upgrade to a used Mazzer SJ was stunning in terms of the difference in the cup.  If the addiction settles in you (and you are well on your way with a PID mod)

(note that I didn't put in tamping....as I get more experienced I'm more and more convinced that tamping isn't a huge variable relative to all of the above in the cup)

Good luck!
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 1,960
Location: Fayetteville, AR
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Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Sat Mar 5, 2011, 5:13pm
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

MOderator Note: moved to Espresso Machines forum

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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Koifla
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Koifla
Joined: 1 Mar 2011
Posts: 65
Location: Miami
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia with Watslow...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: w
Posted Sat Mar 5, 2011, 8:00pm
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

Hi.
Thanks so much for taking the time to help me understand some of the basics. The instructions for the PID Kits was updated as late as 2010 for the V3 and I believe it had 224-228 depending on how warm the machine was. I guess the V3 has a plastic cover around the group head that is a little different it use to be metal and this changed the offset from boiler temps to the group head.
He stated that they took direct temperature readings and I have no drought that it is correct. I guess watching older you tube videos of people using PID’s on Silvia’s I saw temps as low as 208 so I wondered not so much the accuracy of the temperature measurements but the decisions on what to brew at since the PID is pretty consistent.
It was interesting searching older forums where someone based on taste thought he was out there being super high liking 226 to find out he was right in the middle of the now suggested temps.
I been taking shots from 220 –230 from the set point on the PID and trying to taste the difference but me think I don’t understand taste well enough to have a strong opinion yet even if can taste the difference. I am far better with nuts and bolts or measurements and following protocols so I wanted to read what people have experienced and compare.
I have a gram scale I used for dosing medications and been using it on all my shots.
I have been using a timer every time. I can tell small differences in time, pressure and appearances on shots based of differences in grind settings but still need to discern which tastes better. I can tell the difference but it all tastes pretty good to me. So I am willing to play with this and try to get an education on how to get the best shot I can out of this machine. And to that I thank you so much for this site, all its info and your passion.
I just got a naked PF and will ask questions when I have played with it more.
I do not know what WDT is so I guess I need to find out. I measure all my shots and take that into consideration. I am not sure I understand what is meant by ” Consider weighing the output and calculate extraction ratios” Guess there are a few things here I still need to read up on.
Charles
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clumeng
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vivaldi II, 67 Cremina
Grinder: Vario, Maestro, Pharos
Vac Pot: Aeropress
Drip: Technivorm, Chemex
Posted Sun Mar 6, 2011, 7:02am
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

Sorry for the jargon.

WDT is weiss distribution technique.  It's a way to ensure a lack of clumps and kinda resets the distribution in my mind.  Using it every time with Silvia Doubles really improved my consistency and got rid of channeling.

Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

As you tune your taste buds try 210, 220, and 230 and see what you can taste.  I'll bet you will taste the difference and find out if you were too high in general (do 220 and 230) or in the sweet spot.  Too cool leads to sour shots.  Too hot leads to bitter.
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Koifla
Senior Member
Koifla
Joined: 1 Mar 2011
Posts: 65
Location: Miami
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia with Watslow...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: w
Posted Sun Mar 13, 2011, 12:42pm
Subject: Re: PID Set Point on Rancilio Silvia
 

I have taken all the comments and advice very seriously and have taken the time to try to comprehend them. While searching the forum before I posted it was interesting to read someone could tell by taste exactly what advice was being given. One thing they said was that at 228 it was a bit burnt like Guinness but they liked it. I have noticed that at 228 the coffee and crème were dark. I thought that maybe it was the coffee so I ground what I had left up for drip. I have just realized I can see differences between 224 and 228 even if I cannot accurately recognize the taste difference. But I can a little and with the visual differences too I can get a gist. I am playing with 222 right now just to recognize what it is like. It is interesting how 4 deg F can make a visual difference and in taste. I may like 224 more than 228 but don’t know if it poor judgment on my part. I am trying 223 and I will try 220-224 just to realize how much liked 224? Anyway thanks for the advice it is appreciated.

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