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Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
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TheMadTamper
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Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 1,246
Location: US
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Salvatore SES; Izzo Duetto...
Grinder: Compak K10 WBC, K8 Fresh,...
Drip: /Pod: Bunn MCP
Roaster: /Other: Blender - BlendTec...
Posted Wed Feb 2, 2011, 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

Just because John (mad temper) is pulling me by the hair.....

Posted February 2, 2011 link

Hey, can't blame me for finding a thread just BEGGING for your input! ;)

It is not true that thermoblock is inferior to traditional boiler, actually it is the reverse, but again there are a lot of cheap approaches to thermoblock technology..,

I've always been intrigued by the CONCEPT of thermoblock tech, but I've yet to see a thermoblock implementation that was reliable in temperature, be it espresso machines, or sink/shower inserts to replace the American-style central water heater (I know in parts of Europe mini water heaters and thermoblocks are in use, at least for sinks...) Bathing in hot/cold/hot/cold isn't fun, and varies too much based on input temp (cold water input in the US can range from about 35 degrees in winter to 50+ degrees in summer.)

I do not work in the superauto industry, while it is true that I have been directly responsible for putting a couple of machines on the market and am constantly working on new projects.., actually my next project will be CoffeeGeek PROOF......(I keep making notes....)

You should know by now, NOTHING is geek-PROOF! :)

Still it puzzles me that you should base your purchase on the basis that you can import any machine at a price 30% cheaper than market price, since no reputable manufacturer would sell directly to an end user and bypassing distribution network,;my advice is : buy only from reputable vendors who offer after sale service and warranty, and possibly only after you have actually tested the machine (if possible)

Just guessing, but I'd figure UAE pricing is a good cut below the Eur/NA markets, and ties to an importer can probably get some great near-wholesale discounts.
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jezekilj
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Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Posts: 29
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Feb 2, 2011, 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

Just because John (mad temper) is pulling me by the hair.....
if you like convenience go for a good superauto like the Monza, and do not trust me but ask for Chris advice, since after all the machine has been upgraded to his liking... and you get at the same time more than decent quality, provided you consider that the machine you buy although superauto is not intelligent, and that means that you have to re-adjust it when necessary (so that anybody else can make a good espresso just at the touch of a button..)
The fact that certain machines have plastic brew group is not a defect by itself, since plastic does not suck heat like a non heated brew group,
It is not true that thermoblock is inferior to traditional boiler, actually it is the reverse, but again there are a lot of cheap approaches to thermoblock technology..,
It is true that generally the grinder is not comparable to quality of standing units, but you have to consider that in the specific application, and anyway it was for their supeautos that Saeco invented ceramic burrs, it is also true that DeLonghis have a miniature grinder with 47mm conical burrs that does a superb job in the superautos, while it would not stand comparison if used in a standing separate grinder
you have to judge a machine from what you get in the cup, and on consistency of it
I do not work in the superauto industry, while it is true that I have been directly responsible for putting a couple of machines on the market and am constantly working on new projects.., actually my next project will be CoffeeGeek PROOF......(I keep making notes....)
Normally a spring loaded upper piston in the superauto does not require any cream enhancer, since the spring load will provide for natural infusion that greatly enhances quality of brew (besides providing for a dry puck after extraction)... the Monza has an 85 kilo spring that discharges 5.5 bar on the puck so that brew pressure will not exceed 9.5 bar (well almost, because now the brew cup is slightly bigger diameter...)
Still it puzzles me that you should base your purchase on the basis that you can import any machine at a price 30% cheaper than market price, since no reputable manufacturer would sell directly to an end user and bypassing distribution network,;my advice is : buy only from reputable vendors who offer after sale service and warranty, and possibly only after you have actually tested the machine (if possible)
Ciao, Pietro

Posted February 2, 2011 link

Pietro

You have a very good points there

I appreciate your opinion

The thing is I was hoping moving back to Europe soon - so that is why I do not wan to pay 30% more than what I can get in 30% less if purchasing in Europe.

My opinion is just that I will not purchase when offer is dramatically diferent than in other countries especially having in mind going back there.
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jezekilj
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Posts: 29
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Feb 2, 2011, 3:51pm
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

Again, I want to thank you all guys for your prompt and friendly help!
It is to late/early  here and I ll get to you all soon tomorrow/today
Prices here for rancilio silvia is 1000 EUR or something like 1300 USD
Interesting thing here is mentioned about super automatic and that pressure device
All machines mentioned in links by calblacksmith are perfectly fitting my visual taste
calblacksmith, thanks again for generous reply.
Thank you all very very much !
To be honest, now everything is opposite to what I was thinking:
Grinder is more important than machine and more $$$. I expected opposite.
Now somehow by deduction I could tell that I fill that coffee beens and roast- blends are then even more important than grinder ?!
If this is true I ll need to wait for good beens then.
But that Nicaragua green coffee I am getting here is something very nice I am telling you. Even in my pop-roast it beats others.
Only problem is inconsistency of the roast and waste.
And now the game is starting in my head . I enjoy not only in drinking good cafe but also very much in venture of getting it!
After tasting good Italian espresso all other coffees are like if you compare a good old brandy with good tea.
The fact is I never drank coffee until two years back when I tried that espresso.
I believe that my coffee venture is just beginning :o)


Cheers!
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cappuccinoboy
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Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Thu Feb 3, 2011, 1:40pm
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

TheMadTamper Said:

Hey, can't blame me for finding a thread just BEGGING for your input! ;)
...............
I've always been intrigued by the CONCEPT of thermoblock tech, but I've yet to see a thermoblock implementation that was reliable in temperature, be it espresso machines, or sink/shower inserts to replace the American-style central water heater (I know in parts of Europe mini water heaters and thermoblocks are in use, at least for sinks...) Bathing in hot/cold/hot/cold isn't fun, and varies too much based on input temp (cold water input in the US can range from about 35 degrees in winter to 50+ degrees in summer.)
...........
You should know by now, NOTHING is geek-PROOF! :)
..........
Just guessing, but I'd figure UAE pricing is a good cut below the Eur/NA markets, and ties to an importer can probably get some great near-wholesale discounts.

Posted February 2, 2011 link

not blaming you, actually surprised that you should consider me "evangelist" of anything...
Thermoblock technology is a very serious matter : HX is in fact thermoblock technology done improperly : temperature of mass is 120-129C (according to set pressure), water is not exactly instant heated : that's why you need to backflush when unused for a short while : just imagine enough mass to heat the flow as it passes through and thermoblock temperature set PID mode to get water at exactly required temperature = PERFECT !!!, no heat induced pressure as in boilers, no unwanted pressure that is only created as water meets coffee in a natural infusion process...: get the idea ??? now, at least in coffee machines the reservoir water is supposed to be fairly stable , but you can easily compensate for that too.
I would know that something is geek-proof the day Jason (ex ZIN1953) begs me for advice on a good superauto....very unlikely, still never say never...
If OP is from UAE (funny how many posters do not specify where they live...) 30% difference in selling price is probably too low (considering the vast amount of money flowing about in those countries...)
By the way grinder is NOT more important : the four M's are all EQUALLY important because if you miss just one the result will never be TOP.......
Ciao, Pietro
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TheMadTamper
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 1,246
Location: US
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Salvatore SES; Izzo Duetto...
Grinder: Compak K10 WBC, K8 Fresh,...
Drip: /Pod: Bunn MCP
Roaster: /Other: Blender - BlendTec...
Posted Thu Feb 3, 2011, 3:11pm
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

not blaming you, actually surprised that you should consider me "evangelist" of anything...

Posted February 3, 2011 link

Since you're the only person promoting, or even not condemning, super autos, it's fair enough :) I don't like them any more than most other people here, but for someone that's actually interested in what they DO offer and are aware of the pros and cons already, you're the most qualified person here to talk to them :)

Thermoblock technology is a very serious matter : HX is in fact thermoblock technology done improperly : temperature of mass is 120-129C (according to set pressure), water is not exactly instant heated : that's why you need to backflush when unused for a short while : just imagine enough mass to heat the flow as it passes through and thermoblock temperature set PID mode to get water at exactly required temperature = PERFECT !!!, no heat induced pressure as in boilers, no unwanted pressure that is only created as water meets coffee in a natural infusion process...: get the idea ??? now, at least in coffee machines the reservoir water is supposed to be fairly stable , but you can easily compensate for that too.

True, but that's THEORETICAL thermoblock technology.  I've been hearing about its potential for over a decade, and have yet to see a worthwhile implementation of it.  I'm sure it's capable of a lot but I think the combination of variables and expense of attempting to compensate for them make it cost prohibitive to use in most applications.  I remember 10 years ago they were supposed to replace hot water heaters and be spread all around the house at each outlet.  But they never managed to get the tech stable, or rather, do so for a reasonable cost-benefit ratio.  With HX at least the mass can reach equilibrium before use.  With thermoblock, it has to instantly respond to various changing water temps of he incoming water, so ideally you'd have to have water at a stable temp.  That means either dual thermoblocks, or a "boiler" as a pre-heater.  And with enough mass and channels to allow it to be PID controlled, it would almost need two separate heat applications, one for the entrance, and exit....or a realistic way of spreading that heat evenly through the block before it spreading to the water at the parts that are already at the highest temperature.   I'm not saying its not possible, but I'm saying few sources have found it economically advantageous to really bring it to where it needs to be to be useful without it being just a tech toy, and instead be mass production priced.  

I think someday it may get there, but it's not going to be on the forefront of invention, so it'll be a slow path (pun intended.)

I would know that something is geek-proof the day Jason (ex ZIN1953) begs me for advice on a good superauto....very unlikely, still never say never...

LOL!  I'll say never on that one ;)

By the way grinder is NOT more important : the four M's are all EQUALLY important because if you miss just one the result will never be TOP.......

There's one thing I absolutely agree with you on, but I got tired of repeating "grinder is more important is an oversimplification of the fact that your espresso is only as good as your weakest link, be it machine, grinder, bean, or technique", and for newcomers who are still skeptical, iterating that grinder is more important, over and over, tends to make them finally believe that it's at least AS important, since no one really wants to believe the ugly, boring looking grinder is as important as the very sleek & seductive espresso machine until they've seen the difference themselves ;)  And it's fair to say a major grinder upgrade provides a bigger improvement than a major machine upgrade once you're past SBDU.
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jezekilj
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Posts: 29
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Feb 4, 2011, 2:27am
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

I am still looking to this one and must say that I am impressed how seriously you are all in both methodology as well as in equipments.

To wrap this one up, my conclusion would be super-autos are mostly with kind of with  pressurized outputs with exceptions.

But if you want to tune your brew you would probably go to more traditional machine.


Must say at this point that it looks to me that "Miscela"/Blend part of four M's is somehow neglected  but it would represent an art for it self.

If you look what IENI is recognizing there are just couple of certified Companies which blends  are considered to be used for espresso.
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TheMadTamper
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 1,246
Location: US
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Salvatore SES; Izzo Duetto...
Grinder: Compak K10 WBC, K8 Fresh,...
Drip: /Pod: Bunn MCP
Roaster: /Other: Blender - BlendTec...
Posted Fri Feb 4, 2011, 8:17am
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

jezekilj Said:

I am still looking to this one and must say that I am impressed how seriously you are all in both methodology as well as in equipments.

To wrap this one up, my conclusion would be super-autos are mostly with kind of with  pressurized outputs with exceptions.

But if you want to tune your brew you would probably go to more traditional machine.

Posted February 4, 2011 link

Given the type of usage you've mentioned, and since you seem interested in developing proper skills for it, I'd say you'd probably be happiest with a traditional setup.  But if you just CAN'T get your self to want to deal with it in the mornings...you at least know your options!  There's no questioning that it takes a bit of time to refine a process, but with a doserless/timed grinder and HX machine I can do 4 doubles, two 16oz pitchers, and cleanup in 15-18 minutes, and it's just a part of the morning now.  The doubles + cleanup itself is about 9-10 minutes.  The other 6-9 minutes are from filling & steaming two separate pitchers, wand purging, dumping the drip tray, etc. I could make the 4 doubles even faster if I had a faster doserless grinder (K3 is slow), or had 2 brew groups.  In that time is also 2-3 HX cooling flushes over 2-3 boiler cycles as recommended for my machine after warmup idling.  Honestly, though, I let it warm up relatively little in the morning, so I'm not even sure more than 1 flush is needed.  The practice it takes to achieve those times comes from the evening & weekend sessions ;)

Honestly it's become a fun chance to play with my toys before the day begins....the thought of playing with said toys helps drag me out of bed in the morning... :)   With Silvia it was NOT a fun toy...with the HX it is.

Must say at this point that it looks to me that "Miscela"/Blend part of four M's is somehow neglected  but it would represent an art for it self.

I think we conveniently ignore the miscela portion when discussing hardware because we approach the hardware discussion with the assumption that we're talking about using it with optimum beans.  If not, it makes the equipment kind of pointless :) And roasting...be it sampling commercial roasters (which, in Europe, you'd have no shortage of excellent roasters, and in UAE...we'll you're roasting your own, so quality shouldn't be questioned much in that...but that, of course, is its own art with its own forum :) Geographically, there's lost of fresh coffee around there, so I'm sure there's also some great roasters...if only for the tourist industry.
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jezekilj
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Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Posts: 29
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Feb 5, 2011, 11:01am
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

Thanks MadTamper

I also  really enjoy doing it in the morning but than I am usually late for work

But 20 mins is ok if I could achieve it

Will try to find honest roasters first.

I do enjoy tweaking and tuning machinery or electronics
I cannot sleep until I get to the real essence of any new toy I get.

The most control I can make is with either lever machine or that new La Marzocco's Strada with kind of pressure profiling ...
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jezekilj
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Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Posts: 29
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011, 11:43am
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

I ve de-pressurized bot portafilter baskets. They ( Dualit Epressivo UK or PALSON in Spain) are using 53 mm pressurized baskets of almost the same design like Breville does.

I gave them both to work shop for complete cutting.

First I made a 10 mm hole but I was getting very blond crema so I gave them to make complete cut

Then I got disappointed. Espresso was very bad. I red how this all depends on proper tamping pressuring under right angle and again how you should equally spread coffee etc...

Pressurized was far better than what I got

So I taught - I ll go for automatic - a lot of mess I was trying couple of hours I said this is very bad and time consuming.
I ll compromise to avoid mess
I ll never make it work from cheep machine ...


Then I got three consistent and very nice proper shots

Amazing difference

It is like if you would compare biter tea with hot chocolate

And that from the same coffee

amazing difference.

Commercial portafilter design makes a B I G difference in espresso compared to pressurized one.

Still I wonder what best automatic can do.

Any advice on automatics ?
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TheMadTamper
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 1,246
Location: US
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Salvatore SES; Izzo Duetto...
Grinder: Compak K10 WBC, K8 Fresh,...
Drip: /Pod: Bunn MCP
Roaster: /Other: Blender - BlendTec...
Posted Wed Feb 9, 2011, 2:06pm
Subject: Re: Supper / Automatic machines' baskets - are they all pressurized?
 

jezekilj Said:

Thanks MadTamper

I also  really enjoy doing it in the morning but than I am usually late for work

But 20 mins is ok if I could achieve it

Will try to find honest roasters first.

I do enjoy tweaking and tuning machinery or electronics
I cannot sleep until I get to the real essence of any new toy I get.

The most control I can make is with either lever machine or that new La Marzocco's Strada with kind of pressure profiling ...

Posted February 5, 2011 link

Sorry, I lost track of this thread....

Getting your time down depends part on practice, and partially on the machine.  A single boiler dual use machine will NEVER allow for reasonable times.  Having insufficient tools or supplies also affects times.  "Misa en place" , a phrase often used in the culinary world for "everything in its place."  Having all the right tools that you need to do the job, all in the proper location make all the difference. Nothing makeshift is acceptable for doing things quickly.  Having your grinder, towels, baskets, tamper, coffee all where they should be, pitchers in the right quantity and number....just reach and use....that's what really does it.  Yes, the kitchen is transformed into a cafe somewhere along the line ;)

Espresso is ALL about tweaking!


jezekilj Said:

I ve de-pressurized bot portafilter baskets. They ( Dualit Epressivo UK or PALSON in Spain) are using 53 mm pressurized baskets of almost the same design like Breville does.

I gave them both to work shop for complete cutting.

First I made a 10 mm hole but I was getting very blond crema so I gave them to make complete cut

Then I got disappointed. Espresso was very bad. I red how this all depends on proper tamping pressuring under right angle and again how you should equally spread coffee etc...

Pressurized was far better than what I got

So I taught - I ll go for automatic - a lot of mess I was trying couple of hours I said this is very bad and time consuming.
I ll compromise to avoid mess
I ll never make it work from cheep machine ...


Then I got three consistent and very nice proper shots

Amazing difference

It is like if you would compare biter tea with hot chocolate

And that from the same coffee

amazing difference.

Posted February 9, 2011 link

See what a bit of practice does?  What the pressurized basket was REALLY hiding, was the fact that your grind was incorrect.  Once you removed the pressurization system, it let the true flaws of your grind show, and once you got your grind dialed down, you started receiving espresso that was brewed properly.  It's messy, time consuming, UNTIL you figure out what you're doing...then you can run mostly on "autopilot" after that while you work on perfecting the nuances of dose, grind, temperature, etc.

Commercial portafilter design makes a B I G difference in espresso compared to pressurized one.

Still I wonder what best automatic can do.

Any advice on automatics ?

If you're referring to Super auto (and not just volumetric dosing), Pietro is still your best hope for figuring out that end of the market, if only because few other people at CG would use one :)
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