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cappuccinoboy
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 2:13pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

boyscout Said:

Leighton, I owned a good HX machine before purchasing a DB machine............
.................

.......  The HX machine's typically-massive group resists temperature change - that is its job, after all - and it usually gets heated by conduction, rather than the direct heating of brew water by a heater that occurs in a DB....................
Hope this helps.

Posted June 16, 2010 link


davethebrewguy Said:

I expected no less of you .............
............

Again, you re-make my point.  Just as I said, your group is heated by conduction of temperature (from the water), it's big and heavy, and takes some time to change temperature.  A DB's brew water is directly and quickly brought to temperature by an electric heater, ............

..........................

I'm glad you are happy with your machine, really. We'd be more likely to believe it though if you got off the "HX owners all have a secret lust for a DB, buy one now and save a step in the upgrade path" soapbox and recognized that there are at least 2 of us, maybe more, that enjoy the process as much as the coffee and are as happy with our machines as you are with yours.

Posted June 16, 2010 link

It made me smile that so much passion could be put into this matter based on a totally wrong assumption.....brew group is kept hot (in HX and DB machines) basically to "keep" brew water at the right temperature : it is NOT the brew group that brings water to brew temperature...., while a cold group would easily "suck" heat from brew water.......I'd love to hear Bill Crossland's opinion, since he is working on a concept that gets away with heavy mass and big boilers... so he does not waste energy to warm them and keep them warm.....but probably he was just L(ing)OL...
Ciao everybody, Pietro
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davethebrewguy
Senior Member
davethebrewguy
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1,228
Location: The Brewery
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Fiorenzato Bricoletta,...
Grinder: Compak K-6, Baratza Maestro...
Drip: Saeco Renaissance
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 2:25pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

It made me smile that so much passion could be put into this matter based on a totally wrong assumption.....brew group is kept hot (in HX and DB machines) basically to "keep" brew water at the right temperature : it is NOT the brew group that brings water to brew temperature....

Posted June 25, 2010 link

Something must have been lost in the translation, I don't think that anybody has ever claimed that the group brings the water to brew temp. How could a chunk of metal that is heated by water that is already heated possibly heat that same water?
I did however,get a chuckle out of your post, it seems to be based on a "totally wrong assumption." ;)
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cappuccinoboy
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

davethebrewguy Said:

Something must have been lost in the translation, I don't think that anybody has ever claimed that the group brings the water to brew temp. How could a chunk of metal that is heated by water that is already heated possibly heat that same water?
I did however,get a chuckle out of your post, it seems to be based on a "totally wrong assumption." ;)

Posted June 25, 2010 link

Dave you should read carefully what Boyscout said ref brew group and DB "direct" heating system...., and, since it is your mother language, report to me if I did misunderstand.......in which case you will excuse me as an ignorant foreigner.......
Ciao, Pietro
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Joel_B
Senior Member
Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 3:21pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

davethebrewguy Said:

Something must have been lost in the translation, I don't think that anybody has ever claimed that the group brings the water to brew temp.

Posted June 25, 2010 link

Not verbatim, but:


wideasleep1 Said:

I have a group thermostat on my VBMDD, and I too can do some 'on the fly' temp adjustments (a window of 5F is possible) while still maintaining a 1F intrashot variance, but anything greater than 5 degrees requires a 10 minute or more wait due to the brass chunk. I don't see how an HX can do a fully stable 5+ degree change instantly. While totally impractical, I can turn off the PID and dump a huge portion of boiler water rendering my boiler well below the group temp as it would occur similarly to an HX, and the E61 is STILL the gatekeeper. .

Posted June 23, 2010 link

And amongs the claims we've all been making I'm still waiting with some actual data on "on the fly" temp adjustments that seems to be in question.  Anyone?  Bueller?
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davethebrewguy
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davethebrewguy
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1,228
Location: The Brewery
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Fiorenzato Bricoletta,...
Grinder: Compak K-6, Baratza Maestro...
Drip: Saeco Renaissance
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 3:45pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

Not verbatim, but:

but anything greater than 5 degrees requires a 10 minute or more wait due to the brass chunk.
{snip} and {snip} and the E61 is STILL the gatekeeper.

Were these meant to be used as examples of a comment that asserts that the E61 is a "heat source?" The E61 could be referred to as a "buffer" but I see no mention of the brew group being used to heat the water.

And, what kind of "data" did you have in mind?
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Joel_B
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Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 4:32pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

Joel_B Said:

Were these meant to be used as examples of a comment that asserts that the E61 is a "heat source?"

Posted June 25, 2010 link

Yes.  Perhaps I didn't supply enough context of the quotes between Al and myself.  Al (and if I misunderstood my appologies), was claiming that "on the fly" temp adjustments weren't possible on a HX because the group evens out the temp from colder water.  Brewing too hot is always possible with a HX.

Guess I emphasized the wrong portion.

wideasleep1 Said:

While totally impractical, I can turn off the PID and dump a huge portion of boiler water rendering my boiler well below the group temp as it would occur similarly to an HX, and the E61 is STILL the gatekeeper.

Posted June 23, 2010 link

Does that not say the group in fact heats the water?
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Joel_B
Senior Member
Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

davethebrewguy Said:

And, what kind of "data" did you have in mind?

Posted June 25, 2010 link


Joel_B Said:

Outside of speculation here, is there anyone who's actually measured the brewing temps with a Scace or other device?  Is the 5deg range all that can be expected?

Posted June 24, 2010 link

The 5deg range meaning is that the limitations of the range that one can achieve on the fly brew temp adjustments.

Joel_B Said:

So, still curious if there's someone whos actually recorded the possible brewing temps on an HX.  If they've done it on more than one even better!

Posted June 24, 2010 link

Here the possible brewing temps meaning the same; how cool or hot can you adjust brew temps on an HX from on the fly method.

EDIT:  by "data" I'm not looking for documented charts or log sheets.  Rather has anyone actually used something along the lines of a Scace (or other) that gives the brewing tempature range on an HX.  Erics thermometer doesn't measure the water at the coffee.
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boyscout
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Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 404
Location: Toronto
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sun Jun 27, 2010, 6:50am
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

Leighton, it's not clear if you ever returned to this thread you started.  Given the nasty street-fighting started (again!) by a couple of HX's advocates, and their confusing and exaggerated and even contradicting claims, who could blame you?

However if you are still following this, and still looking for advice, I've just seen this thread that I had missed:

 "Questions about learning curve"

A number of people there managed to voice pleasure with double-boiler machines without having the HX muggers pile in, and they make useful points that are worth considering if you are still trying to decide which type of machine is best for you.

The thread was started in mid-May... change of seasons... maybe the HX muggers missed it because they were too busy trying to re-learn to get stable temperatures from their HX machines as the weather changed.  <grin>
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Joel_B
Senior Member
Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sun Jun 27, 2010, 7:41am
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

boyscout Said:

Leighton, it's not clear if you ever returned to this thread you started.  

Posted June 27, 2010 link

Well, seeing that his post starting this thread was his last, he may have been scared off.  Tis a shame.

boyscout Said:

who could blame you?

Posted June 27, 2010 link

agreed.

BUT, there was still some good discussion here, so not all was lost in my book.

boyscout Said:

However if you are still following this, and still looking for advice, I've just seen this thread that I had missed:

 "Questions about learning curve"

Posted June 27, 2010 link

That is a good thread.  Some good, honest info there.
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Joel_B
Senior Member
Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sun Jun 27, 2010, 8:04am
Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
 

I like the on the fly (I'm still not convinced that it's not possible) of the HX, so I'd definately weigh that in if/when I upgrade.  But when will someone come out with a 2 group triple boiler machine?  Seriously, I'd go for that.  2 brew boilers dedicated to each group and 1 for steaming.  Or does it already exist?
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