wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,399 Location: San Francisco,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mahlkoenig K30 Vario Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2010, 11:38am Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
Joel_B Said:
I am more than willing to admit that my tastebuds are wrong (what I'm using to determine the quality of the shot). But my tastebuds tell me I can taste the difference based on when I pull the shot. And as I stated I don't know the exact temps I'm getting and I may very well be pulling shots at the same temp. I will probably rent a Scace if/when EPNW's rentals become available. Until then, I'm going to follow what I think to be true until the evidence tells me otherwise.
Not me..I'm more than willing to accept your taste buds! :)
You've measured this?
Empirically, yes...I notice all sorts of interesting 'phenomena' since I installed my group thermo. First, I verified that my DD indeed pegs a less than .5F intrashot differential, confirming what was discussed in that DD vs. HX thread a while back...even with (was it Eric?) data, I still had trouble accepting that level of stability on the E61. I've also learned that the base goal of 201F on my VBMDD requires a PID reading of 225F, representing a 24F offset, and a group idle temp of 194F on the thermo, and THIS is one of the ways I can pull shots on-the fly, before reaching the known stable temp..after reaching it, I too use a recovery time method to vary my shot by 2-3 degrees typically, with effort and some flushing, I can get 5 degrees, with *usually* about a degree stability intrashot. Sometimes the temp might briefly dip cooler/hotter than a degree but only by a few tenths.
So you've done this? Or is this speculation? "well below the group temp" is subjective, but I'm not convinced, say 170deg water, will shoot up to 200deg from the group alone.
As above. One on occasion, I turned off the PID (no heat) after the machine was stable, before pulling ANY shots, then proceeded to pull my first, then second about 2 minutes later...the second shot was a stable 3 degrees lower than the first. However, I didn't turn the PID back on to see what temp the boiler was...I was heading out the door in a hurry, but clearly recall thinking about it on the way to work. Haven't done it since, owing to having no real need to play with temps in this fashion...these are simply observations. :) I roast one SO typically, but recently have done 2-3 SO's for blending, so I'm still not swapping SO/Blends on the machine in the same day, my goal 'window' is usually only a few degrees at most when I do want to fiddle, and the E61 thermo helps me on that...but as you state, taste buds are the end game.
I agree that it still is a good value. That gap is closing, but there's still some decent entrly level HX machine in the $1K range.
Outside of speculation here, is there anyone who's actually measured the brewing temps with a Scace or other device? Is the 5deg range all that can be expected?
I'd love and answer to this too, but more for curiousity about how the E61 behaves in response to it's input method (HX vs. DB) more than which one 'might be better'. I doubt that particular subject has a resolution! :D
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2010, 12:08pm Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
Interesting info Al; thanks for sharing.
For the record, I'm not claiming my "tastebud" method is scientific, nor am I claiming that I'm an expert. I am; however, claiming that it's what matters most to me and that I can in fact taste the difference based on when I pull the shot.
One thing that's come to mind is that I could imagine there are some variables that are machine specific that might widen (or shorten for that matter) the "on the fly" hi/low temp range. Namely the actual volume and design of the HX line/chamber.
wideasleep1 Said:
I'd love and answer to this too, but more for curiousity about how the E61 behaves in response to it's input method (HX vs. DB) more than which one 'might be better'. I doubt that particular subject has a resolution! :D
nixter Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Giotto Evoluzione, Oscar Pro Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2010, 12:35pm Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
This whole thing is kind of silly. People defending this and that. It's about what an individual's needs and tolerances are. I for one own and love my HX. I started with an Oscar and now own the new Giotto Evo. Is it easy to learn and get the hang of flush and rebound? Hell no. It's even harder without a thermometer and to suggest otherwise is just incorrect. However, the learning is part of the fun for me, figuring out the flush/rebound technique and working within it. Once you learn it you have a sense of accomplishment and it makes a wonderful shot of espresso just that much more wonderful, knowing you were integral in it's creation.
HX's are great machines, capable of great espresso. They are best suited to those who love and have the time for their nuances. If you want espresso with less fuss then go with a double boiler. Notice I said less fuss, not no fuss.
HX vs DB, PC vs Mac, Canon vs Nikon, the list goes on. People will always argue. Pick what best suits YOUR needs and don't look back.
While I agree in principle with your post, I don't think it's question of "needs." "Need" is giving up the sports car for a minivan due to now having a set of twins, or for a pickup truck because you now work in construction . . . "need" is about buying a new suit or two for the office because that new promotion means more presentations to the board of directors, instead of getting a new set of golf clubs . . . etc., etc.
Canon vs. Nikon? There is no difference between them that I can tell . . . I bought the one that was less expensive but with equal features. In this regard, it's more like Ford vs. Chevy -- either you buy the brand your family has always owned, or you buy the one that looks better, or you buy the one that costs less.
PC vs. Mac? For 95+ percent* of the people, it makes no difference; both will accomplish the exact same thing. I have used PC's since before there were PC's, when the operating system was C/PM. Then I transitioned into the original IBM PC . . . I switched over to Macs when my kids were using Macs in school. The only thing I really miss with my MacBookAir is that WordPerfect doesn't write for the Mac anymore. ;^)
HX vs. DB? There's no difference in the cup, so it's all about what you already own, what looks better, and where the "wow" factor is. I tried really hard to buy a Vibiemme Domobar HX, but I was one of the first to do so and they kept arriving damaged in transit, so I ended up buying a La Valentina instead. No regrets. But the Vibiemme Double Domo did not yet exist; who knows -- if it had, I might have bought it and ended up with a DB instead of an HX!
Cheers, Jason
* There may be some video/audio software for the Mac that doesn't have an equivalent on a PC, but for the vast majority of us, it truly doesn't matter/affect the "end-user" in any appreciable way.
When friends tell me how their Android phone is better than my iPhone, I just refer them to the comparison by Walt Mossberg. It puts the issue to rest once and for all. :-)
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,399 Location: San Francisco,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mahlkoenig K30 Vario Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2010, 8:51pm Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
fnacer Said:
When friends tell me how their Android phone is better than my iPhone, I just refer them to the comparison by Walt Mossberg. It puts the issue to rest once and for all. :-)
"Shut up!" LOL! /diggin FroYo FRF83 on my Nexus One as I type..free wireless hotspot on TMO, now if we could finally get 3.5G service that Portland, OR. enjoys!
Nixter: I like to think of it it as debate rather than argue...at least to me it gives a sense of setting out to accomplish something, when one debates. But it's all semantics, and the final intent/agenda of the debaters must be weighed, to see if your effort would be misspent. :) Sure, it would be nice to browse CG recreationally, add a few viewpoints and opinions without facing an onslaught of challenges, but it's also helpful to keep in mind we're all in various states of slight to extreme caffeination...and there's always someone on the interwebs that is outright wrong! :D
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,399 Location: San Francisco,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mahlkoenig K30 Vario Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2010, 9:13pm Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
HX vs. DB? There's no difference in the cup, so it's all about what you already own, what looks better, and where the "wow" factor is. I tried really hard to buy a Vibiemme Domobar HX, but I was one of the first to do so and they kept arriving damaged in transit, so I ended up buying a La Valentina instead. No regrets. But the Vibiemme Double Domo did not yet exist; who knows -- if it had, I might have bought it and ended up with a DB instead of an HX!
Some may recall my ordeal, I ordered a VBMDD from the first pallet, and I noticed no damage to the box, nor the machine. Only after opening the machine to swap in the upgraded steam boiler did I realise my unit had been seriously dropped, and my brew boiler was nearly an inch from its factory install position...I had to push with my 220lbs bodyweight to get that boiler back into position without kinking/collapsing it's copper tubing...a smaller man would have been out of luck! :D Thankfully, several of us guinea pigs squealed enough that Vibi repositioned several internal components and packs the machines much more securely. They, as well as their US distributors (1st-Line, Stefano's), have always listened and resolved my issues pre and post warranty, which have been few. Today's orders should not suffer as we did. :D
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2010, 9:46pm Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
wideasleep1 Said:
They (Vibiemme), as well as their US distributors (1st-Line, Stefano's), have always listened and resolved my issues pre and post warranty, which have been few. Today's orders should not suffer as we did. :D
Indeed. And steps were taken to resolve the problems experienced in shipping, and -- as 1st-Line says on their website -- "Our major problems with this line in the first year were mostly attributable to damages from mishandling by our friends at UPS and Fed Ex. However, these have been resolved with a newer style packaging and removal of the feet during shipping."
I cannot recall anyone posting any problems regarding Vibiemme machines and problems from shipping since the earliest days . . .
nixter Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Giotto Evoluzione, Oscar Pro Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 1:27am Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
Things got a little heated on page one. Maybe too many shots while trying to dial in that finicky HX? Kidding.
In regards to the VMBDD shipping issues, I have a friend who I recently turned to the dark side and I recommended the VBM to him, (nice first first machine!) It had some shipping damage but it was nothing he wasn't able to fix while on the phone with 1st Line.
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Fri Jun 25, 2010, 7:01am Subject: Re: Heat exchange machine temp control
nixter Said:
In regards to the VMBDD shipping issues, I have a friend who I recently turned to the dark side and I recommended the VBM to him, (nice first first machine!) It had some shipping damage but it was nothing he wasn't able to fix while on the phone with 1st Line.
Second half of the above-referenced quote: "The few problems we did have (three heating elements, one brew pressure gauge, and four sticky vacuum breakers due to limescale) were all handled by each customer with replacement parts so that these heavy units would not have to be shipped."
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