Zin1953 Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 1,695 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: no, Press Pot Drip: Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 6:06am Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
uscfroadie Said:
Bobcat, I'll take a stab at answering until Jason has a chance to do so. If you think your Brewtus changes temps in 2 seconds you are gravely mistaken!
Exactly. It takes just a moment to change the temperature setting, but it takes a considerable time before the boiler comes down/up to the right temperature and becomes thermally stable.
Think of the thermostat of a home's central heating unit. Changing the temperature is easy, almost instantaneous . . . on the thermostat. For the entire household to reach the new temperature takes longer.
Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 7:21am Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
uscfroadie Said:
............................
E61 groupheads are not ready to produce a shot at the temp set forth by the boiler, even with an offset dialed in. The grouphead will be cooler requiring a flush to bring it up to temp on a DB. Once brought up to temp and the boiler has had a chance to rebound, only then can you pull a shot at the desired brew temp. ..............
The thermal gradients and thermo-siphon on an E61 are ideally suited to an Hx environment. If I was getting an Hx, it would be an E61. If it was a DB, I would look to a saturated grouphead to simplify temperature management. There are good reasons to put an E61 on a DB, but they come more from manufacturing and marketing than engineering. It's popular, well regarded and available off the shelf component
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,057 Location: Sausalito,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mahlkoenig K30 Vario Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 9:08am Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
Bobcat Said:
I'm really surprised there's so much debate on this. It's always seemed obvious to me that a DB was an upgrade over a HX. You get dead-on temp stability, you can steam and extract simultaniously, you'll never have to wait for the water temp to be correct (or something close to correct)for steaming versus extracting. What's not to like?
Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 8:40pm Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
All very good points.
To each his own pleasure. I'll remain happy with my DB and recognize that my past experiences with HXs were chapters in my own personal quest for espresso nirvana. Some people will prefer other paths in their quest, and that's a good thing. The real benefit here is that we can all learn and share on this forum.
Bob Von Kaenel Brewster's Coffees Lincoln, Nebraska
This conversation isn't a good/bad, better/worse, right/wrong sort of thing at all, nor is it an either/or. And I have no doubt that, were I to switch to a DB, that I too would be very happy with it. (After all, if I weren't, I'd switch back!)
Jon R points to ease and convenience as an "upgrade," and while there are merits to this, it certainly wasn't what I was referring to when I originally started the thread. I wouldn't get a car without power windows, a power seat, and a multi-CD changer -- even though, most of the time, I listen to the radio. But if it weren't for my seriously bad knees, I would still love to have a stick shift instead of an automatic -- despite the hills of San Francisco, or the really steep hills across the Bay in Berkeley, where I live. (Not all conveniences are upgrades; some are just necessary.) But I digress . . .
Rather, I am looking in the proverbial cup: all else being equal, is what I get from a DB better than a comparable HX machine? To me, I haven't seen -- or rather, tasted -- it.
This doesn't mean I praise HX machines and dismiss DB's, or that I hold HX's is some sort of higher regard. I don't. I think both designs are capable of yielding outstanding espresso. Both designs have their plusses and minuses, their learning curves, and their "tweaks."
wideasleep1 Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,057 Location: Sausalito,Ca Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: VBMDoubleDomo Grinder: Mahlkoenig K30 Vario Vac Pot: nope Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: IR1 and 2,SC/TO,Behmor
Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009, 3:25pm Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
Typical usage and user exprience should not be discounted when deciding whether a particular technology serves as an 'upgrade'. Indeed, many of us spend money and time tweaking existing machines we own (upgrading) soley for this reason. A PID, Eric's thermometer, timers, metered dosing,etc. etc. all play a role in upgrading our exisiting machines, or satisfying our urge for the new machine upgrade. While some certainly improve the cup, others improve the experience.... in the best case scenario, both. You are more likely to use and enjoy a machine that offers excellence in the cup, with the least amount of tedious management required. This is also closely related to 'forgiveness factor', in that the bulk of the responsibility should be on the machine to meet the expectations of the barista, and the role that technologies will play in meeting those expectations. Rather than worship a technology, pay attention to the result, then to the means used to achieve it, then improve upon both. :)
Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009, 8:40pm Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
It seems to me that this conversation boils down to one question; is convenience an upgrade? If it is, is a SBDU machine an upgrade from a MCAL? Is a Super-auto an upgrade from a Speedster?
Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009, 10:21pm Subject: Re: Topic Continuation: Is Moving from an HX to a DB an upgrade?
To me, Yes.
Convenience IS a factor of an upgrade for me.
MAIN reason why I want to upgrade from my Anita? Temperature Management. Plain and Simple.
In the same respect, I literally have zero complaints about the operation of Anita as a Pour-Over Heat Exchanger. In that regard, she preforms very well. Get the HX Flush down, and things work for you. Find the right Boiler Temp based on what temps you want to hit with your flush, and it can be easily repeatable. The water tank holds a decent amount of water.
However... I have learned that I HATE pour-over. It is a royal PITA, FOR ME. With my consumption, I was easily filling up two times a day, sometimes 3, and on occasion, four. And that is from full to JUST before the Low-Water Cutoff would kick in. I have a lot of cups, and they needed to be removed everytime. In that regard, I also wish there was more space up top. Temperature Management, while I DO have a solid routine which allows me to hit between 197-202 without a severely distorted profile, I dislike the flushing/rebounding business. Of course, the Grouphead Therm made it easier to repeat, but it is still the same thing. Its not so much repeatability, as it is doing the flush everytime, and adjusting for frequency.
SO, while I do have complaints about Anita, I dont think any of them are in relation to her being a pour-over heat exchanger. Because, AS THAT TYPE OF MACHINE, she works exactly as she should, everytime.
But those complaints are WHY I want a plumbed-in double boiler with electronic temp control(whether it be PID or Vivaldi Style). Plumbing is obvious, no filling up the tank. But the reason I want the easier and more precise temp control of a electronically controlled boiler dedicated to brewing, IMO, is somewhat based on how I use the machine.
Most of my coffee consumption is straight espresso. Further more, a good portion of that is single origin coffees, and fruitier stuff. At any given time, Ive got 3 to 4 different coffees on my bench, which usually pull best at different temps then each other. I would like to be able to say, "Ok, lets pull this at 203", and just type it in and go. Hitting that same exact temp, everytime, is clearly easier on a double boiler, though certainly doable on ANY HX.
Now, Ive got this personal opinion that Ive formed as of late. Add a lot of salt, because I could be completely wrong here, but, this is what I think. . . -I think that double boiler espresso machines are BEST suited to the straight espresso drinker, and most HX machines are BEST suited to the "multi-drink" espresso drink(Capps, Lattes, Espresso, etc etc), and here is why... -The granularity, and ease of temperature management of a double boiler makes it very easy and super consistent to hit the exact temp you want for a given coffee, as compared to an HX. You get the flat-line temp profile, so what you want is what you get. -Wheras, on an HX, you get the classic Hx Hump profile, and while that may or may not be better or worse, when its in milk, it doesnt matter, AS MUCH. You are also limited to what temperatures you can "hit", depending on your P-stat setting. Which, in some cases, means you either have a very long flush, or anemic steam power, OR, right in the middle.
Now, PLEASE dont take this as a stab at HX owners or people who like milk drinks. I am an HX owner, who drinks milk drinks. And I know that GREAT espresso, straight espresso, can be made shot after shot, with an HX. I just PERSONALLY think that a dual boiler gives the staright espresso drinker an edge. You can easily see where the lemon turns to orange peel, and where fruit turns to mouthfeel, or where acidity is most prevalent, or disappears completely, and on and on and on. On an hx, you just dont get the granularity, or rather, you dont get the EASE of which to HIT those temps, time after time, shot after shot.
Again... I KNOW, that most if not all of you guys with HXs can, time after time, get what you want out of your machine. Believe me, I own an HX, of a brand which some say is harder to manage temperature on, as compared to say, a Giotto or VBM. Once the routine is down, its down. But on a double boiler, there is no routine. Enter the temp you want, wait a few mins to stabilize, and pull away.
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There has also been much debate about whether or not an E-61 group on a double boiler is the right option for that specific machine design. I wonder about this, mainly because, E-61 SINGLE BOILERS, like the Zaffiro and Alexia, are often called the best choices for the straight espresso drinker. Take the Alexia. Its got an E-61 Group, and a PID(say you added it on). You dont see very many debates over whether or not the Alexia is a great design for a single boiler. I fail to see how a single boiler E-61, and a DB E-61 Differ, AT ALL, with regard to brewing. The only difference is that there is another boiler, which only provides steam and hot water, and maybe preheats brew water. If it works on a single boiler, which it does, I fail to see how it doesnt work on a dual boiler.
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Jason,
I wonder if the fact that, currently, you have no desire to "upgrade" to a dual boiler is because of your choice for your machine use machine, an Elektra T1. I wonder if you owned, say a QM Vetrano, you would feel the same way. Now, before I give me reason for such wonderment(:-)), let me just say, I dont think that you are "wrong" in not wanting a dual boiler, and Im certain you make good espresso, day in and day out, and easily can hit the temps you want with your machine. I base this upon the fact that your favorite espresso is from Vivace, whose blends are known to be complained about by many HX users because of a "finicky nature" --But the main reason I wonder as I do, is because the Elektra Sixties are four of the easiest HX machines to control, Temp Wise. They are of the "Dragon" nature... Low to no thermal memory, and a high recovery. The flash boil is EASILY "detected", and from that, temps are easy to hit. Add to that the fact that, aside from the Vetrano, they're the quitest machines around, and that fact that theyhave MASSIVE steam power, and, IMO, its easy to see why you dont have much lust for a double boiler. Which, IMO, there is nothing wrong with. Its just an observation between friends :)
And I would just like to add, that in my quest to decide which machine I would personally like to upgrade to, I have decided that it will, of course, be a double boiler. Whether it be a GS/3 or something else has yet to be 100% decided, however. . . If I were to find a good deal on an Elektra T1(because I would also like Volumetric on my upgrade), I would seriously consider it. In fact, the T1/A3 would be the ONLY HX machine I would consider buying, IF I were to purchase another HX.(this is assuming nouva simonelli doesnt come out with a 1grp Aurelia WBC Cert.) Its a beautiful machine, super quiet, and easy to manage temperature. Thats not something you get often from an HX.
Disclaimer- the above is 100% personal opinion. All words can be contested, proved wrong, or quoted for fun jokes. This is just what I personally believe, and it is of course, subject to change without notice, at any given time
...Follow Your Bliss... ....And grind finer, tamp lighter....
In the last 6 years of selling Mazzers, we have only experienced one defective grinder.-Jim Piccinich 1st-line Equipment, a Home-Barista Forum Post
Yes. Ex. Why choose HX over SBDU? Convenience. Unless you're not a milk-drinker. A SBDU with a pressure gauge and temperature management is an upgrade over a SBDU lacking them by yielding improved results AND convenience.
If it is, is a SBDU machine an upgrade from a MCAL? Is a Super-auto an upgrade from a Speedster?
Silly, but I'll play. Technology exists to satisfy both convenience and results...the upgrade is the unit that best meets the expectations of the user, and most users want a balance of quality and convenience. Expectations are also dependent on knowledge and experience (palate), so a super would only be an upgrade over a Speedster for someone deficient in knowledge and experience (in the eyes of those who have superior knowledge and experience..aka relativity).
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