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Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
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wgraff
Senior Member
wgraff
Joined: 8 Jun 2007
Posts: 53
Location: Trabuco Canyon, CA
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia Espresso
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Cuisinart
Posted Wed Nov 7, 2007, 5:47pm
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

With the PID on my Gaggia Espresso, I found that I had to correlate not just the water temp at the brewhead with the PID display temp, but had to decide on a repeatable point in time as well. My routine is as follows:
I warm up the machine for at least 15 min then pull 1 or 2 blank shots.
With my PID setpoint at 227, I get ~201 at the brewhead when the PID first reaches the setpoint. The longer I wait after that point, the higher the brew temp gets.
In that case, I pull 1 or 2 blanks to cool the tiny boiler below my desired brew temp. Then I wait for the PID to first hit the setpoint, then pull the shot.
I have had very good, and repeatable results with Coffee Klatch Belle Espresso and Terroir La Lapa decaf.
I think pulling a shot on my little boiler Gaggia with the temp rising to my desired brew temp works well because the PID gives me a repeatable point in temp AND time, and the PID cycles the heaters quickly on and off to minimize temp overshoot. The boiler metal adjacent to the heater where the TC lives, is no hotter than the setpoint and acts as a heat sink to reduce the temp drop during the pull to about 3 deg. The PID is indispensible.
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TagTeamJesus
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 355
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LM GS/3 AV; PID Silvia
Grinder: Kony E; Macap MC4
Drip: v60
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2007, 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

Just to second what ground_coffee said, when I used Mark Prince's temperature surf, my coffee was consistently thrown down the drain.  I haven't found any data showing that method produces the right temperature, but just going on taste alone, something seems wrong.  My coffee tastes overly roasted, burned, harsh.  Also, I know his video on YouTube is meant to convey information, so he has to spend time talking, but after he flashes to steam, he spends another 21 seconds before brewing.  Wouldn't that make a big deal in terms of the water rising in temperature again?  I wonder if he actually likes the taste of the shot he makes.  

So I found the temp surf method on Sweet Maria's website that suggested brewing at least 40 seconds after the boiler light goes on, with their recommendation being 1 minute after.  I found that 44 seconds after the light goes on produced the first shots I was able to savor off my Silvia.  I have no idea what temperature that tends to be because I haven't seen the data on this either.  But again just going on taste, this seems more like the temp surfing method that Mark Prince should have posted on YouTube....delicious very, very often (still sometimes nasty, but other factors are still at play and I am still new).  Yeah, I just don't get why he made that video unless I am just completely missing something.    Which I might be, because I am relatively new to this, but I find other methods work a lot better.  I am using the newest version of Silvia, which I just purchased brand new in September of 2007 from www.betterespresso.com

I just discovered this thread and I am really excited about trying the reverse method described here by Dan back in 2003.  Thanks Dan!  I'll try this out soon when my headaches go away after drinking way too much espresso this week.  =-)

Hey, ground_coffee, I am seriously thinking about getting a PID.  Then I wouldn't even have to worry about surfing in the dark.  I think it would be so cool to eliminate the shortcomings of a factory Silvia by building in the temperature control.  As I am sure countless others have already posted, Jim Gallt sells a very well thought out PID kit that is ready to easily install on a Silvia without having to send her away for reconstructive surgery.  The kits just went way up in price....as in, OUCH.  But, still seems to be worth it, and it's all I'm asking for this coming holiday season.  Here is a link to his site:

http://www.pidkits.com/kits.html

Until I get one of those beauties, I am going to play around with this reverse temperature surfing stuff and see how it tastes compared to the method I have been using (brewing 44 seconds after the boiler light goes on).

this is a great thread.  Thanks to all for posting.
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edink
Senior Member
edink
Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Atlanta
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sat Dec 29, 2007, 8:40am
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

So I found the temp surf method on Sweet Maria's website

I found that site's Silvia page but I couldn't find anything about temperature surfing anywhere on the site. Got a link?
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skispresso
Senior Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: isomac venus
Grinder: macap m4 doserless
Posted Sat Dec 29, 2007, 9:17am
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

I found that site's Silvia page but I couldn't find anything about temperature surfing anywhere on the site. Got a link?

Hi edink, i think the info on sweet maria's site is maybe on that page, but scroll down a little (2/3 down the page just after the ristretto pic.... or do a ctrl+F/Command+F(mac) for the following: "Befriending Miss Silvia"--under this article is a step by step numbered list that describes their procedure on timing to find tempurature.

click here

The bottom of the page also lists additional links including the temp surf video from Mark Prince.
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Smoothe2112
Senior Member
Smoothe2112
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 68
Location: Western New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia-PID, Solis...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky, Maestro
Vac Pot: Press Pot
Drip: Cuisinart
Posted Sat Apr 5, 2008, 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

Thanks for posting this information (all those years ago!), Dan.  The reverse temperature surf method has given me some nice, consistent shots on my new Silvia.
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xdavez
Senior Member
xdavez
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 1,157
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II
Grinder: Mazzer mini
Vac Pot: none
Drip: Technivorm
Posted Sun Apr 6, 2008, 6:31am
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

how much patience DO you have?
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Smoothe2112
Senior Member
Smoothe2112
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 68
Location: Western New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia-PID, Solis...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky, Maestro
Vac Pot: Press Pot
Drip: Cuisinart
Posted Sun Apr 6, 2008, 1:14pm
Subject: Re: Some extraordinary results by reverse temperature surfing
 

xdavez Said:

how much patience DO you have?

Posted April 6, 2008 link

Actually, I've found that with setting the boiler in motion and by the time I weigh my beans on the digital scale, grind, do the WDT, distribute, & tamp properly, it's almost time to pull the shot.  Taking my time seems to yield better shots at this early point in my Silvia experience.

The scale was a key addition as I found out I was usually around 10% off in dosing.  That was more than I expected and another factor in my consistency.  Since the scale arrived and I adopted this surfing method, I'm 13 for 14 for pulling decent/very good shots with the one miss being a <19 sec blondie in which I hurried up the distribution and tamping.
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BoldJava
Senior Member
BoldJava
Joined: 2 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,507
Location: St Paul, MN
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: '82 Oly Cremina 67
Grinder: Macap MC4 Doserless Stepped
Vac Pot: Yamas
Drip: Hario, Beehouse, Cilio, Kone...
Roaster: RK Drum and Gene
Posted Tue Apr 29, 2008, 7:16am
Subject: Re:Ms Silvia and reverse temperature surfing
 

Smoothe2112 Said:

Actually, I've found that with setting the boiler in motion and by the time I weigh my beans on the digital scale, grind, do the WDT, distribute, & tamp properly, it's almost time to pull the shot.  Taking my time seems to yield better shots at this early point in my Silvia experience.

The scale was a key addition as I found out I was usually around 10% off in dosing.  That was more than I expected and another factor in my consistency.  Since the scale arrived and I adopted this surfing method, I'm 13 for 14 for pulling decent/very good shots with the one miss being a <19 sec blondie in which I hurried up the distribution and tamping.

Posted April 6, 2008 link

2 minutes after the boiler light kicks off -- will have to try this.  While we use the Ms Silvia with milk drinks (which covers a multitude of sins), occasionally friends like a shot.  I need to hone my skills for them.

B|Java, keeping the reverse temp surfing thread alive

 
"On the trail for the goats' grail..."

Dave Borton
St Paul, MN
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Noonievut
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Sep 2006
Posts: 472
Location: Toronto. Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Rocky DL
Vac Pot: Other - Aeropress, Clever,...
Posted Fri Oct 24, 2008, 8:28am
Subject: Re: Ms Silvia and reverse temperature surfing
 

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I thought it's preferable to a new one.

I have a brasilia club, I've heard it's similar to a silvia, and I'm wondering if anyone with this machine has rev temp surfed with success, and if you could mention the time after light goes off you're using?  A long shot, I know.  Also, if you've found a way to incorporate the steam button during the shot (to stabilize temp), please mention.

My routine - after letting the machine warm up (30 min or more), I run maybe 2 oz through the group into my cup, then I grind, wdt, tamp, lock and pull the shot.  I've never timed this, but I'm thinking about a minute.  My palate isn't great and I drink the shot unless it's a gusher (fault of grinding setting most often, not bad temp surfing), but I thought "maybe I'm missing something here".
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Psyd
Senior Member
Psyd
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,468
Location: MON AZ
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astoria Argenta SAE II,...
Grinder: Rio and Astoria (Mazzer)...
Posted Tue Oct 28, 2008, 11:13am
Subject: Re: Ms Silvia and reverse temperature surfing
 

BoldJava Said:

2 minutes after the boiler light kicks off -- will have to try this.  

Posted April 29, 2008 link

Without identifying which thermostat the technique is good with, it's fairly well useless.  It's like giving directions and suggesting where to turn at what tick of a stopwatch, but not telling how fast one should be driving.  All the directions are there, but there is a huge important reference missing. Getting there is more a function of luck and happenstance, and the chances of it happening are slim.
Following the surfing instructions on a 110C machine from a user that has a 100C machine won't get you decent results, and reversing that situation would probably make it worse.

 
http://members.cox.net/gearsale/Astoria
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