JacobS Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2006 Posts: 156 Location: Copenhagen Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3 Grinder: Robur Roaster: Probat '73 RE 1 Sample...
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 11:33am Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
mrgnomer Said:
It took me a couple reads but I think I understand what you're saying. The North American Cyncra delivered to you in Copenhagen really inflates the total price. The LM, on the other hand, coming out of Italy would be a better over all deal for you. Interesting perspective.
Sorry What I say is, that Franke made the GS/3 an extra-expensive piece of machinery for the NA customers. The idea were to keep Jim from blaming LM for the increased price and provide him with an 'value for money' argument at the same time.
roblumba Senior Member Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 349 Location: San Jose Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 1:26pm Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
mrgnomer Said:
Although I'm not intimately familiar with the GS/3 parts relative to design quite often a machine designed for home use, dare I say it, may use less expensive/robust parts since the volume/operating demand on the machine won't really require all braided water lines, very good shielding of electronics from heat sources... The point about pricing is the GS/3 puts itself now in the Cyncra range so if formerly the less expensive price made the GS/3 more attractive now you have to consider whether the GS/3 is as good or better of a machine than the Cyncra one group either in the 110V or 220V model.
Notice they call it the "Lite Professional", it's designed for use in the home, but as others have pointed out, they put mostly commercial grade parts in there. The La Marzocco technology has been proven in the industry for decades. And the GS3 benefited from the experience La Marzocco had with the GB5's in the cafe's over the years as far as electronics, shielding, etc. Perhaps my sense of security is misplaced, but as a consumer who doesn't know all the manufacturing and other low level technical details of either technology, I sorta banked on the reputation and scale of La Marzocco over Cyncra.
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 1:36pm Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
roblumba Said:
Perhaps my sense of security is misplaced, but as a consumer who doesn't know all the manufacturing and other low level technical details of either technology, I sorta banked on the reputation and scale of La Marzocco over Cyncra.
I don't know anything intimately about either Synesso manufacturing or LaMarzocco. The impression I get is Synesso is smaller and builds to order more for the commercial sector. LaMarzocco, I believe, does a lot of hand building as well but they're of course larger, have a more extensive product line and more production volume. Again, does that make them better or more reliable?
Reputation and scale are no guarantee to continued product quality and support. You can bank on that at your own risk. There are many examples of companies who start relying more on their name than the quality of their product to attract customers. Zassenhaus comes to mind.
Yes, there were a number of situations where boiler corrosion occurred due to a problem with a particular formulation of a certain water filtration system. This filtration situation has been remedied. However, my friends' two-group was not on that particular water filtration system and a test of the city water supply (done on location at both my friends' shop as well as my own) determined that Baltimore's water supply is nearly perfectly formulated for coffee production - lending to my skepticism regarding the claim that this was a "water issue."
I know intimately the details of the damage since I did the replacement work on the steam boiler. The situation was unfortunate really because it took months for Synesso to cover the replacement under their warranty. It put a bad taste in my friends' mouth - someone who was a very vocal and enthusiastic supporter of Synesso. We would have frequent ribbing sessions about whose machine is "better". Now, that no longer happens.
JimWright Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 252 Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Espresso: LM GS/3, Estro Profi Grinder: Macap M7KR Vac Pot: Yama Drip: Other: Eva Solo, Press Pot
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 5:03pm Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
onocoffee Said:
Yes, there were a number of situations where boiler corrosion occurred due to a problem with a particular formulation of a certain water filtration system. This filtration situation has been remedied. < snip >
Interesting! I'm glad to hear that the filtration issue was remedied, and that at least in the end, Synesso covered your friend's machine under warranty. And you're right, it's pretty dumb that they would at first refuse to cover it and then cave, irritating an otherwise happy customer in the process.
But more importantly for my purpose, what, if I may ask, was the water filtration system at issue? While I'm mostly sure I'll end up going bottled anyway, I'd like to know just in case - when I move, I may get to a situation where plumbing is ok, and notwithstanding the fix I will avoid that one if I know, whichever machine I end up with!
JacobS Said:
What I say is, that Franke made the GS/3 an extra-expensive piece of machinery for the NA customers. The idea were to keep Jim from blaming LM for the increased price and provide him with an 'value for money' argument at the same time.
Nope the danish equivalent of the original 4500 claim - and I even got a discount on that ;-)
Well, with a GS/3 at 4500, I think the value proposition comparison would be completely different! :-D It's funny - if the difference is really that large, it would more than pay for a flight to Europe to pick one up. If you don't mind, please PM me where I can get one for this price if you don't feel like posting - I might do this. Seriously.
Here in the U.S., the list price of the GS/3 is actually higher than the Cyncra's, and the street price only $700-1000 less, depending on who you ask. As far as blaming LM goes, suffice it to say that I (and more than a few others) still think they bear substantial responsibility for how this went down, and many people were relying on a representation made by them which turned out to be false. (Few if any of us know the details of their contracts with ESI, etc., but I don't think one can properly assume they had no control at all and are "victims" here.) Some people won't care, and for others, this obviously left a bad taste - this issue has been beaten to death here and elsewhere. That said, I may decide to ignore it and go with a GS/3 anyway! It'll just mean a few less dinners out this year, and it's still enough cheaper than the Synesso to be non-trivial, even after the increase, and perhaps even after the trip to pick it up!
roblumba Said:
Notice they call it the "Lite Professional", it's designed for use in the home, but as others have pointed out, they put mostly commercial grade parts in there. The La Marzocco technology has been proven in the industry for decades. And the GS3 benefited from the experience La Marzocco had with the GB5's in the cafe's over the years as far as electronics, shielding, etc. Perhaps my sense of security is misplaced, but as a consumer who doesn't know all the manufacturing and other low level technical details of either technology, I sorta banked on the reputation and scale of La Marzocco over Cyncra.
This was where things like the bending reservoir tabs, which may require replacement after the nth time they're bent back and break off, misplaced/sized drip tray mounts which will cause the drip tray to be flexed/bent repeatedly when going in, and other issues seen so far cause doubts for some prospective buyers and irritation from some current owners - and these are just the things that showed up in the first few months, so it makes one wonder what the replacement pattern will be in two or more years, when the machines are not on warranty anymore.
The Cyncra has both the few years out in the wild to know with more certainty and the full commercial build, hopefully, to avoid some such things. Of course, the flip side is that you certainly pay for that, in weight, in size, and in dollars - the price of bringing a no-compromise commercial machine home - and obviously, no machine is completely free of problems, commercial or otherwise, large manufacturer or boutique.
You're also of course right that much of the La Marzocco technology is transplanted, at least in substantial part, from the commercial machines, and their basic technology will most likely be very reliable. And it's fair to note that LM has been beaten up quite a bit over the QC and price issues, though perhaps also equitable, given the amazing amount of good press they generated before the machine's release - they should have expected some significant scrutiny.
One thing is for sure in any event - there will be a substantial number of very happy GS/3 owners out there, along with a number of very happy Synesso owners.
GrantT Said:
< snip > Anyways, some credibility has been lost, and that is a shame. While the GS3 and Synesso's are wonderful machines and I would LOVE to have one, a well practiced barista can make an excellent espresso on much lower cost machine as well. There are a slew of obvious advantages to these new breed machines though and they are pushing the bar to new levels, but everyone has weigh these and determine their value.
OK - I really want to know - exactly HOW is the GS3 "better for the coffee" than a (PID'ed) LaMarzocco Linea? Note that if I was to get a Linea I would certainly install a PID for the brew boiler, and my experience includes using a PID'ed machine
I have used both machines and I can certainly say that the coffee is comparable. Within my limited ability to pull shots I cannot taste the difference. So - have you used both machines and determined that the GS3 is "better for the coffee"? If not, then what basis do you have for making the statement?
Not to be pedantic, but let's try to stick with facts and when we get into subjective territory let's be transparent about that. Does that sound fair enough?
I can certainly understand the appeal from a smaller-package/pourover/home user perspective And of course the potential for espresso is fabulous....
I made wonderful shots with the GS3 (but no better than the shots I made with a PID'ed Linea or GB5)
The flojet alone will produce "waves" of pressure that cycles with the flow because it's an "on-demand" pump. If you check the older Yemen video I posted so many times, you can hear the flojet cycling in pulses but you cannot hear the machine's rotary pump at all.
I installed an accumulator and that levelled out the pressure. The flojet feeds the accumulator so the machine now sees only a contant supply pressure. The system I use goes like FLOJET-->ACCUMULATOR-->FILTER-->MACHINE. I use a filter to double-ensure the water and it acts like a small static tank as well to further smooth out the water pressure/flow presented to the espresso machine.
EDIT - OOPS! Click THIS for the video where you can hear the flojet cycle And then CLICK THIS for the newer video where the accumulator is installed and you can't hear it all all.....(it cycles at the start but just to feed the accumulator)
JimWright Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 252 Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Espresso: LM GS/3, Estro Profi Grinder: Macap M7KR Vac Pot: Yama Drip: Other: Eva Solo, Press Pot
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 5:42pm Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
JonR10 Said:
The flojet alone will produce "waves" of pressure that cycles with the flow because it's an "on-demand" pump. If you check the older Yemen video I posted so many times, you can hear the flojet cycling in pulses but you cannot hear the machine's rotary pump at all.
I installed an accumulator and that levelled out the pressure. The flojet feeds the accumulator so the machine now sees only a contant supply pressure. The system I use goes like FLOJET-->ACCUMULATOR-->FILTER-->MACHINE. I use a filter to double-ensure the water and it acts like a small static tank as well to further smooth out the water pressure/flow presented to the espresso machine.
PhillySteve Senior Member Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 32 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 Grinder: Cimbali Max Hybrid, Mazzer... Vac Pot: not anymre Drip: only if I must Roaster: a bunch of'em
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 8:05pm Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
onocoffee Said:
However, my friends' two-group was not on that particular water filtration system and a test of the city water supply (done on location at both my friends' shop as well as my own) determined that Baltimore's water supply is nearly perfectly formulated for coffee production - lending to my skepticism regarding the claim that this was a "water issue."
I know intimately the details of the damage since I did the replacement work on the steam boiler. The situation was unfortunate really because it took months for Synesso to cover the replacement under their warranty. It put a bad taste in my friends' mouth - someone who was a very vocal and enthusiastic supporter of Synesso. We would have frequent ribbing sessions about whose machine is "better". Now, that no longer happens.
Wow. Do you think it might be the metal composition or the welds that fatigued? What do you suppose caused the failure? How long had he owned the machine such that warranty coverage was even questioned?
PhillySteve Senior Member Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 32 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 Grinder: Cimbali Max Hybrid, Mazzer... Vac Pot: not anymre Drip: only if I must Roaster: a bunch of'em
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2008, 8:24pm Subject: Re: Cyncra vs. G3
JonR10 Said:
OK - I really want to know - exactly HOW is the GS3 "better for the coffee" than a (PID'ed) LaMarzocco Linea? Note that if I was to get a Linea I would certainly install a PID for the brew boiler, and my experience includes using a PID'ed machine
Does LM sell a PID'd Linea? I thought all of the stock Lineas came without PID. I should think he was basing the comparison on machines as they come, not following customizations/mods.
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