seanstew Senior Member Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Maryland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Dec 22, 2007, 4:38pm Subject: Advice on super automatics
I am looking to buy a super automatic espresso machine and I am desperately looking for some advice. I am wondering if I can pull a great shot of espresso and get the right froth from a super automatic. I prefer cappucinos and lattes. I have been looking at the Delonghi gran dama and the jura Z5. Any experienced users out there? Are there other machines to strongly consider with the same capabilities in the $1-3K range? Thanks in advance for all the help!
Zin1953 Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 509 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: no, Press Pot Drip: No Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Dec 22, 2007, 10:22pm Subject: Re: Advice on super automatics
Sean, all I can tell you -- not from owning one, but from having espresso/cappuccino at several friends' houses who do -- is that I've never had a great espresso shot from a superautomatic.
Weasel Senior Member Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 30 Location: San Jose, CA Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sun Dec 23, 2007, 12:07am Subject: Re: Advice on super automatics
Hi Sean, where I work we sell 5 machines in the Jura-Capresso line. I do not see them as capable of doing what a Miss Silvia, Gaggia Classic, or even Francis Francis does. I don't know if any super-auto is capable of getting the nice straight shot pulls like the aforementioned machines, but I highly doubt it.
If you are interested in beautiful pulls of espresso without milk, this is not the line for you.
On the other hand, if you largely want milk drinks, simple espressos, 'crema coffee', and convenience, then you would likely appreciate this line of machines, provided you aren't concerned with microfoam.
I can't speak for the Delonghi machine as I've never seen it. I am familiar with the E9, F8, S9, Z5, and the new J5. If you're still interested in the Jura line, I think you should check out the F8 ( $1,400 ), S9 ( $2,300 ), or Z5 ( $3,250 ).
Here are some of the major distinctions:
The F8 offers 2 brew temperatures, 3 strengths ( doses ), a side froth option ( siphon ), and a clock so you can program the machine to turn on at a particular time. About 64 or 71 oz water tank... sorry I'm doing this from memory.
The S9 offers 2 brew temperatures, 4 strengths ( doses ), side froth option, clock, and 2 thermoblocks - very useful for entertaining. Larger water tank than the F8, maybe 96 oz?
The Z5 is the Big Daddy of the line: 3 brew temps, 5 strengths ( doses ), side froth option , clock, 2 thermoblocks, 1 touch cappucino/latte button, easier programability - particularly volume, plus other features for convenience. Large 96 oz water tank (fairly certain).
I am not knocking the E9, but for the extra money I think the F8 offers more value - 2 temps, side froth (included), and clock. The J5 is new but doesn't seem hot enough to me.
All Juras in this line have the same conical burr grinder with 6 setting options, and I've seen good reliability from the E9, F8, S9, and Z5. Again the J5 is too new to evaluate for reliability.
I know of two nationwide retailers who demonstrate the Jura line. I hesitate to mention them as I don't want this to be a commercial, merely to explain the merits of the machines as I know them, and give you an idea of what to expect.
luc Senior Member Joined: 1 Jul 2007 Posts: 9 Location: Hong Kong Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Dec 23, 2007, 12:23am Subject: Re: Advice on super automatics
Hi Sean, I ended up owning a Gaggia Syncrony Digital when I took over a restaurant that I later sold on I managed to keep the espresso machine. Luckily the machine was basically brand new. Since the restaurant didn't generally serves lots of espresso drinks to clued up customers... it was fine how we used it... eg. primarily for staff. Even then we ran primarily cappuccino's and latte's and served the clientelle instant with lots of milk - just the way they like it (hey it's Hong Kong... what do you want?).
Since that time I've been on a quest for a better espresso and I realize that as convenient as my Gaggia Syncrony is... it's not entirely capable of a brilliant espresso. It will make drinks like cappucinos and lattes well enough... where sugar, milk and milk foam are masking a fair bit of the actual coffee flavor anyhow. But to my tastebuds it generally doesn't do a really good espresso shot. Passable... yes. On par with some of the better ones I've had outside. No. The closest I've come is using good beans, recently roasted and bottled mineral water. But it's still not 100% to what I've had outside. It will make a latte or a cappuccino similar - perhaps a bit better - than Starbucks. And definitely better than Pacific Coffee. But it's not going to make an espresso like I get at Cova Cafe. Or a strong flat white like I get a Zambra Coffee.
It's relatively easy to maintain... and looks decent. Not as cool as some oldschool metal espresso machine... but it'll do.
It steams milk... and takes a bit of practice to get a nice cup of steamed milk. But if I was shelling out cold hard cash for a machine and I knew that I was going to be drinking espresso I'd go for some other option. Probably something a whole lot more manual than automatic and worry more about my grinder and other bits rather than push button simplicity. I think there are far better types of espresso makers out there to invest the time and money into.
seanstew Senior Member Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Maryland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Dec 23, 2007, 7:45am Subject: Re: Advice on super automatics
Thanks for the insight Zin, Weasel and Luc. I am more of a coffee and milk drinker, so I know I have some room for error when pulling the espresso shot. I really want convenience and easy clean up and a great shot of espresso....I guess I am asking for too much. I used to have the time to enjoy spending 10-15 minutes making my coffee but now with a young one at home I find I am rushing just to get a good cup of coffee in my system each morning. I also wanted a machine that could prepare a round of cappicinos for when we have guests in a timely fashion. I will research the Gaggia line as well. Thanks again!
luc Senior Member Joined: 1 Jul 2007 Posts: 9 Location: Hong Kong Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Dec 23, 2007, 7:53am Subject: Re: Advice on super automatics
Hi Sean, Yeah it sounds like you could get some use out of Super Automatic.. but with questions of such gravity... you'll want to decide how far you take your coffee drinking. Some people never take it past a certain level... and despite what many espresso snobs say... that's fine. I can tell you... at 6am... I could give a rat's ass about the perfect espresso on the level of which only God's drink.... I simply need to get some basic form of caffeine in me. Once I'm actually in the world of the living... I do however want the kind of espresso that makes the mouth water... that's where it becomes some sort of mystical like vision. :D
With a little one running around... you definitely are going to find it hard to achieve God like in espresso... : )
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