Zin1953 Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 1,695 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: no, Press Pot Drip: Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Wed Sep 5, 2007, 3:01pm Subject: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
I am writing VERY EARLY in the process of upgrading my "prosumer" machine. Here's the situation . . .
My current setup: I have a Valentina Automatic, which I must say I'm very happy with, along with two grinders: a Mini Mazzer (doser) and a Quick Mill (doserless). Usage runs 50-50 espresso/milk drinks; figure 4-10 drinks per day, which will (probably) be increasing as our kids get older.
That said, my wife and I are just at the very beginnings of looking to remodel the kitchen (probably a year from now), and I'm thinking that -- if we're going to remodel -- we have to upgrade to a plumb-in (and drained) machine.
Yeah. Sure. Of course I'd like a La Marzocco GS3 or a Synesso Cyncra, but I need to save some of the budget for the actual remodel. So, I'm looking at the following machines:
Izzo Alex Quick Mill Vetrano -- Both are somewhat more "industrial looking" and not very sexy looking; both are semi-automatic machines (with a lever), rather than full auto, meaning I'll be making all the coffee drinks (my wife won't touch it; then again, she barely uses the La Val Auto now!); both are affordable.
Fiorenzato Briccoletta Semi-Auto Fiorenzato Briccoletta Auto -- Both look kinda sexy, with the semi-auto winning in the looks department; not much recent buzz, however -- is it a case of a great machine, but people are focused on "what's new, what's hot"? or are there now better machines available?
La Spaziale Vivaldi II -- Dual boilers sound great, but do I really want to get rid of everything I own that's 58mm for brand-new Bumper tampers, etc.? Not that sexy looking, but it does have volumetric dosing, and it is affordable.
Electra Sixties Model T1 La Cimbali Junior DT1 -- Both are pricey, but within budget . . . barely; both have volumetric dosing; both are solid well-built machines that should put an end to any future desire to upgrade (unless I win the Irish Sweepstakes). The Electra (IMHO) is the beauty contest winner hands-down in this head-to-head comparison, but several people have commented upon the "long drop" and that extension between spout and cup (how much of a problem is that, really?); OTOH, I suppose I could learn to use those "weird" levers for water and steam rather than the more traditional knobs.
Nuova Simonelli Appia Auto 1-group Rancilio Epoca E1 -- Do I REALLY have to spend over $3K? I hope not . . .
Astra GA Salvatore Automatic -- Again, price is pretty steep on these two, but they ARE located here in California in case something goes wrong . . .
Anything else? Reneka Techno?
Of course all this would be easily if people I knew had each of these machines at home so I could try them out, but -- no such luck. So if anyone has any ideas/experiences they want to share . . . .
Posted Wed Sep 5, 2007, 6:58pm Subject: Re: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
Out of your picks: from a LaValentina-
An Alex, Bricolleta, Vetrano or even the La Spaz VII would be more of a lateral move unless a rotary pump plumb in is what you're looking for. The heat exchangers are standard e61 group and the LaSpaz is a double boiler of similar quality.
You could get a semi-automatic Elektra A3 as well. That and the Astra would be your next step up. The Elektra's group is proprietary and both machines have bigger boilers and are rated for reasonable commercial volume use.
The LaMarzocco GS3 would be the high end home machine. Designed for 110V home use. The Cyncra one group comes in a 110V model as well and it's another high end home machine that's been around longer than the GS3.
The Appia is a good one group based on the Aurellia. I'd say it fits in with the Elektra and Astra.
All in all, though, for me it's not so much the machine but the roast, grind and technique. A good grinder, good fresh roast and good hand will make good espresso on any capable machine, IMHO.
Please do not misuderstand. I appreciate your reply, but the whole point is to move to a rotary pump/plumbed-in machine. I thought I made that clear in my original post. I am sorry if that point wasn't clear.
You are completely right, of course, that it's the user as much, or more so, than it is the machine. That is why machines like the LaMarzocco GS3 and the Cyncra don't make sense to me -- well, not at those prices!
I was hoping to hear from people who have rotary-pump/plumbed-in machines . . . do I make a lateral move and just go with the Alex or Ventrano, or is it worth it to upgrade to the Elektra or Cimbali? I'm trying to keep the machine I buy $3K new.
Posted Thu Sep 6, 2007, 9:52pm Subject: Re: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
With a bit of searching (sounds like you have some time on your side) and some luck, and perhaps a little bravery, you could pick up a second hand commercial machine. I found a 1-group Wega EPU Airy for sale from a cafe, and it's one of the single best purchases I've made of anything ever.
It's plumbed in and out, built to last, and far, far more grunty and solid than any similarly priced new prosumer machine. Best of all - it's a complete 'upgrade-itis' cure!
Keepitsimple Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 287 Location: UK Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Reneka Techno + moka pots Grinder: Mazzer Mini-e, Dualit 4 drip... Vac Pot: Cona "C" Drip: Melitta Thermo steel... Roaster: Given up with that !
Posted Fri Sep 7, 2007, 1:03am Subject: Re: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
Zin1953 Said:
That said, my wife and I are just at the very beginnings of looking to remodel the kitchen (probably a year from now), and I'm thinking that -- if we're going to remodel -- we have to upgrade to a plumb-in (and drained) machine.
Hello, Jason. I did exactly that a while ago. Many people have to compromise and put the machine somewhere that there's already water in/out, and it isn't always the most convenient place. If you have the opportunity to plumb in (and out) with a plumbing configuration designed specifically for that, then go for it. Mine is about as far away from the rest of the kitchen plumbing as you can get - but it's the most convenient place for the machine.
You would never want to go back to filling tanks and emptying drip trays, and you can pull water to heat cups/run flushes as often and as long as you like - In fact it keeps the drip tray and drain clean and free running.
As you are refitting your kitchen, presumably you can install a 220v supply at the same time, rather than just 110v ?
I don't have any experience of the machines on your short list to help with that bit (although I have used a La Spaziale S1 which I had on my own shortlist originally, and which I liked when I used it. Personally I wouldn't diss it for a 53mm portafilter - I'd buy a new tamper and sell the old stuff with my old machine - perhaps as a deal maker). I wouldn't see it as a "lateral move" either. Anyway, they all seem to be regarded as competent home use machines by their users and advocates.
The Reneka Techno is no longer manufactured unfortunately, and I don't think there are any more 230v versions available. There may be some N.American 110v models still knocking around unsold, but they are going to compromise a little on power/heating I suspect with lower wattage elements. I'd highly recommend the machine if you could get one at a reasonable price (they always seem to have been very expensive if sourced in N.America compared to the price elsewhere).
Buying used/commercial is always an option. It is considered potentially risky by some contributors on here, and as with anything used, caveat emptor applies. I would not presume to comment the US market in these as I don't know anything about it, but on this side of the Atlantic, if you get a good one there are some real bargains in used single/double group machines sold refurbished and warranted as a result often of cafes failing and closing, machine leases coming to an end, or chains swapping over to fully automatic machines. Most commercial machines really aren't very sophisticated devices, are fairly robustly built, and spares and service are generally quickly available if ever needed (which is not always the case over here for the more domestic machines.)
In most cases, the main downsides of commercial machines in the home are physical size, power consumption, heat output and I'm sure a few others will be highlighted. Sultanoswing is very happy with his though, and has highlighted the upside too. I'd certainly go the commercial route if I were in the market for a second machine. You might even find other new single group commercial machines which aren't on your list to be surprisingly within your budget and worth some research.
Tex Senior Member Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Posts: 840 Location: Texas - That's God's country to everyone else! Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Bunn ES-1A (PID'd), Gaggia... Grinder: Rancilio MD50 Vac Pot: Way too many vintage Silex... Drip: Melitta Clarity Roaster: TurboCrazy &...
Posted Fri Sep 7, 2007, 8:32am Subject: Re: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
I like the way you think! Designing the new kitchen around your desire for good coffee is the only way to go.
I had my commercial machines in the kitchen; plumbed & wired as solidly as anyone could want. Then I decided (that means the Ol' Ball & Chain decided) that all of the coffee equipment would look better in a space dedicated just to coffee. An alcove formerly devoted to a china hutch is being made over to accomplish that. After a lot of thought I didn't opt to have everything plumbed this time, having decided that a passive feed from a 5 gallon water bottle serves the purpose just as well. For drainage there will be another 3 gallon water bottle.
My first commercial machine was a 2-group La Cimbali - too big for my needs. Then I happened upon a Bunn ES-1A (1-group commercial) that has proven to be the ideal home espresso machine. It's a heat exchanger machine made by Gaggia of Spain. It has a smaller than usual footprint, an E61-type group, smaller boiler than most commercial machines, excellent controls, and as commercial machines go, isn't bad looking at all. If you can find one and don't mind a bit of refurbing, these may be the best kept secret in our forums.
Other commercial machines that might suit your needs are the Nuova Simonelli 1-group models.
Posted Fri Sep 7, 2007, 12:51pm Subject: Re: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
Zin1953 Said:
Please do not misuderstand. I appreciate your reply, but the whole point is to move to a rotary pump/plumbed-in machine. I thought I made that clear in my original post. I am sorry if that point wasn't clear.
You are completely right, of course, that it's the user as much, or more so, than it is the machine. That is why machines like the LaMarzocco GS3 and the Cyncra don't make sense to me -- well, not at those prices!
I was hoping to hear from people who have rotary-pump/plumbed-in machines . . . do I make a lateral move and just go with the Alex or Ventrano, or is it worth it to upgrade to the Elektra or Cimbali? I'm trying to keep the machine I buy $3K new.
Sorry, I was assuming from your topic title you were looking to upgrade. My mistake.
I really like my Vetrano. Quiet, has everything you need, very consistent and after over a year no problems. Very good home machine.
My first choice for upgrading was an Elektra A3 but after trying one out along with a Vetrano and taking a close look at both machines I went with a Vetrano for a couple reasons.
Price- the Vetrano is cheaper Parts- the Vetrano parts are stock. Elektra's group is proprietary and I don't know about all the Elektra's inner parts but as far as servicing and maintaining a machine I figured the Vetrano would be easier and less expensive. Performance- where I was at as a home barista I didn't get any better shots out of the Elektra compared to the Vetrano. Both machines are plumb in, both machines are rotary pump, both machines are quiet. The Elektra would kick the Vetrano's butt at parties for sure but for personal use the Vetrano was all I needed. Support- the Vetrano is a collaborative effort between Chris and Quickmill. He's had the machine tweaked over the years to refine her so he knows the machine. She's a good machine with a good vendor personally behind her.
It's a personal choice. The Elektra and LaCimbali are highly regarded. If you need more of a machine because you plan on hosting large get togethers or want a machine that offers a little more they're good choices, IMHO. Machines like the Alex and Vetrano are tried and true e61 HX's and as Chris would say, if you're looking for consistent God shots they wouldn't be your first choice but if consistently good espresso is what you're after at a reasonable price they're a very good choice.
Zin1953 Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 1,695 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: no, Press Pot Drip: Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Mon Sep 10, 2007, 5:49am Subject: Re: Upgrade-itis rears its ugly head once again . . .
Sorry, I was assuming from your topic title you were looking to upgrade. My mistake.
Well, I'm thinking that moving from a pour-over to a plumbed-in model IS an upgrade, even if the machine's overall performance remains similar. But I can see the confusion . . .
While we DO entertain, I'm thinking that an Elektra would be the maximum upgrade (i.e.: I can't see getting a commercial two-group machine) . . . and while I was originally thinking of a extra water line and drain, and an extra 20 amp circuit, it would be possible to run 220v, wouldn't it? Hmmmm . . . . hadn't thought of that.
Fortunately there is time, and since (I'm presumine right now, but all architectural plans are subject to change) the location for the machine will be a countertop rather than an island, there's little point in a Mistral . . . (sigh)
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