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Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Steaming Power...  
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italiano
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 27
Location: France
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: ECM Germany Tecknika IV
Grinder: Mazzer Mini and Pasquini...
Posted Fri Jun 20, 2003, 7:27am
Subject: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

I currently own a Pasquini Livia and do not have any complaints with respect to its steaming power and recovery. Since the Pasqini Livia has a smaller boiler than the ECM Giotto and since I have no experiance in steaming on a Giotto all I have read is that the Giotto does not compare and is weak in comparison to the Pasquini Livia with respect to  steaming. My question is since the Giotto has a larger boiler and steaming performance and its power comes from the boiler pressure generated in the boiler it would make sense to me that the ECM Giotto would produce more steam hands down since it has a larger boiler. Instead the oposite is true. Can anyone logically and mechanically explain why the ECM Giotto produces less steaming power than the Pasquini Livia ? Thks
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rbh1515
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 1,282
Location: Milwaukee
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LM GS3
Grinder: Mahlkonig/VersalabM3
Vac Pot: have one
Drip: no
Roaster: got that too/never use it
Posted Fri Jun 20, 2003, 10:19am
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

I think the Giotto has gotten a bad rap in the steaming department. I did a side by side which I reported here on CG between my neighbor's Giotto and my Isomac Millenium (which BTW has a good steaming reputation). The Giotto was a stronger steamer by far. My Millenium though is no slouch. I can create great microfoam and pour nice latte art. I am happy with the steaming on my Isomac. I think the tip you use is one of the most important parameters.  Rob
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blkeagl
Senior Member
blkeagl
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 306
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Tea
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Solis Maestro
Vac Pot: Bodum eSantos, Silex
Drip: Whassat?
Roaster: Hottop Bean Roaster, HW...
Posted Fri Jun 20, 2003, 11:00am
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

I believe Giotto's bad reputation for steaming came from a Schomer review in which he may (or may not) have been comparing it to a commercial machine. In which case it does not compare favorably, of course. I would guess it really isn't an issue.

In any case, the reason a smaller boiler can be a factor is that it takes less power to bring it up to full pressure, and pressure is more of an indicator of good steam than volume of the tank.

All else being equal.. in other words, if the Pasquini and the Giotto have similar wattage heating coils, the smaller volume boiler will yield better steam pressure and properly matched to the power output of the heating coils, for a longer time (the larger boiler will take longer to lose pressure and turn on the coils, but it will be slower to come back up to pressure as well).

The tips also make a difference in foam quality, but they are secondary to good, sustainable pressure.
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rbh1515
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 1,282
Location: Milwaukee
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LM GS3
Grinder: Mahlkonig/VersalabM3
Vac Pot: have one
Drip: no
Roaster: got that too/never use it
Posted Fri Jun 20, 2003, 11:33am
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

blkeagl Said:

I believe Giotto's bad reputation for steaming came from a Schomer review in which he may (or may not) have been comparing it to a commercial machine. In which case it does not compare favorably, of course. I would guess it really isn't an issue.

In any case, the reason a smaller boiler can be a factor is that it takes less power to bring it up to full pressure, and pressure is more of an indicator of good steam than volume of the tank.

All else being equal.. in other words, if the Pasquini and the Giotto have similar wattage heating coils, the smaller volume boiler will yield better steam pressure and properly matched to the power output of the heating coils, for a longer time (the larger boiler will take longer to lose pressure and turn on the coils, but it will be slower to come back up to pressure as well).

The tips also make a difference in foam quality, but they are secondary to good, sustainable pressure.

Posted June 20, 2003 link

I'm not sure I agree with everything above. I think the only real way to compare different machines is to actually compare them side by side.  Comparing specifications is one thing, but you have to include all the variables--some of which you may not know. You may look at specs of two different cars and one on paper may look faster, but the real world is the only test that matters.  And, I still think that the role of the tip in steaming is something that most people are unaware of.  Try a variety of tips on your machine and see for yourself. I've got a drawer of about 7 tips and only one is any good. The others are essentially worthless, including the stock tip that came with my machine. BTW...the Isomac does have very sustainable pressure. The Giotto also appears to be sustainable from what I've seen.  Rob
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mdreuben
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mdreuben
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
Location: Cleveland
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: La Spazialle VII, Electra...
Grinder: Mahlkonig K 30 ES
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Say No To Drip!  Use the Eva...
Roaster: Sonofresco, Gene Cafe,...
Posted Fri Jun 20, 2003, 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

italiano Said:

I  Instead the oposite is true. Can anyone logically and mechanically explain why the ECM Giotto produces less steaming power than the Pasquini Livia ? Thks

Posted June 20, 2003 link


I don't believe you can say that the "opposite is true".  To the best of my knowlege no one has done a side-by-side of the two machines.   My Giotto puts out a tremendous amount of dry steam continuously.   More than enough for a 24 oz steaming pitcher making almost constant milk drinks.

The quality of the foam wasn't great until I switched to the Chris Coffee tip.  Now you almost can't help but make great microfoam.
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laservet
Senior Member
laservet
Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 241
Location: Williamsburg
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3
Grinder: Versalab M3, Mazzer Mini
Vac Pot: Zojirushi
Drip: Bunn SmartWave APS, Bodum...
Posted Sun Jun 22, 2003, 1:09pm
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

The quality of the foam wasn't great until I switched to the Chris Coffee tip.  Now you almost can't help but make great microfoam.

Is that the 2 hole tip listed on the Chris Coffee site, Item #: 2SHSTIP ?

Paul

 
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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mdreuben
Senior Member
mdreuben
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
Location: Cleveland
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: La Spazialle VII, Electra...
Grinder: Mahlkonig K 30 ES
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Say No To Drip!  Use the Eva...
Roaster: Sonofresco, Gene Cafe,...
Posted Sun Jun 22, 2003, 1:17pm
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

laservet Said:

Is that the 2 hole tip listed on the Chris Coffee site, Item #: 2SHSTIP ?

Paul

Posted June 22, 2003 link


That's the tip.  It's awesome!
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laservet
Senior Member
laservet
Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 241
Location: Williamsburg
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3
Grinder: Versalab M3, Mazzer Mini
Vac Pot: Zojirushi
Drip: Bunn SmartWave APS, Bodum...
Posted Sun Jun 22, 2003, 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

Thanks!

Paul

 
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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schrepel
Senior Member
schrepel
Joined: 3 Oct 2003
Posts: 13
Location: Portland
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Livia
Grinder: Rocky
Roaster: WhirleyPop (o yeah!)
Posted Mon Oct 20, 2003, 11:52am
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

I'm having trouble getting good microfoam with Livia. I have both the Chris Coffee 2-hole tip (the "new" small-hole tip mentioned in the above posts), and the other larger 2-hole tip offered by Chris. I find they're both good at different phases of the steaming process.

With the "new" tip, I can't get a good whirlpooling motion after stretching the milk. It seems like the holes restrict the steam flow too much, maybe. With that tip, it takes almost 45 seconds to microfoam the milk, which just seems way too long.

The other 2-hole tip (larger holes) makes a good whirlpool effect but it's harder to control the initial stretching phase, so I often have larger bubbles than I'd like.

Oddly, I was able to make great foam on both my Silvia (w/3-hole tip), and on my stovetop steamer (the same 3-hole tip). Both give me enough time to control the stretching, but they really get that whirlpool motion going.

Am I just lame? Is there a 3-hole tip similar to Silvia's tip available for Livia? Any suggestions on tip placement during the whirlpool phase? (Like is it near the edge, do you angle the pitcher, how near the bottom of the pitcher...)

Thanks for all the great advice I've gotten from this site so far.
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flydhest
Senior Member
flydhest
Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 274
Location: Washington, DC
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Giotto
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Roaster: Hottop
Posted Mon Oct 20, 2003, 5:41pm
Subject: Re: Steaming Power Pasquini Livia versus ECM Giotto
 

Well, I love my Giotto.  Even if I could redo the choice, I don't think I would.  However, this weekend we had 5 people over for brunch, which means, including me and the Mrs., I made 7 lattes in as quick succession as my still-learning hands could make them.  I only have a frothing pitcher big enough for two lattes worth of milk at a time (should have made everyone drink macchiatos :->) so I had to rinse (in cold water to cool it) the pitcher and re-use it 4 times.  On the third round, Signore Giotto did start to lose pressure.  The pressurestat for the boiler fell pretty significantly.  Luckily, it also comes back up pretty quickly, and since I was the last in line, and I had to refill the hopper on the grinder, it had time to pop back up.  

This is likely the most I'll ever have to do, but if I was better (read: faster) at my whole routine, I could see getting ahead of the machine.  That said, I have the stock steam tip, so maybe with the replacement tip that everyone is talking about and I now feel obliged to get (thank you soooo much for spending my money), it wouldn't have happened.  Dunno, I haven't thought enough about how the tip would affect things.

Anyway, just a comment from a Giotto lover, that you might actually encounter some steaming limitation.
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