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** Rocky SS Doser  vrs  Mazzer Mini  Shootout ! **
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > ** Rocky SS...  
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Ian
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Ian
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,469
Location: England

Espresso: Euro2000,Rancilio
Grinder: Mazzer,La Cimbali
Vac Pot: Cona-->CraigA
Drip: Belgique for emergencies
Roaster: Primas with variac
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 6:47am
Subject: Re: ** Rocky SS Doser  vrs  Mini Mazzer Shootout ! **
 

Dan, are you on the Silvia or Valentina?

I've only had my Mini for a few weeks and have only put 5 types of bean(just over a kilo) through it so far. I have been grinding between the factory zero and 4 notches towards the coarse (clockwise on the ring) but mainly between 2 & 3.

HTH

Ian

+ I forgot to say that I'm probably tamping lighter with the Mazzer than when using the Rocky.

 
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HB
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 8:23am
Subject: Re: ** Rocky SS Doser  vrs  Mini Mazzer Shootout ! **
 

Coolandmellow Said:

Dan, are you on the Silvia or Valentina?

Valentina.  Oh, she's one sweet machine.  I'll have a fuller evaluation soon.  First impressions are impressive.

I've only had my Mini for a few weeks and have only put 5 types of bean (just over a kilo) through it so far. I have been grinding between the factory zero and 4 notches towards the coarse (clockwise on the ring) but mainly between 2 & 3.

Posted July 4, 2003 link

Much better, thanks!  I'll be finding the best spot this weekend, but the last pull was already very good to excellent.  I'm not overly pleased with the doser, it leaves behind quite a bit (around 2-3g per shot by my measurements).  I have to coax out the rest with a pastry brush, sigh.

BTW, I found that a standard 2" to 3" PVC adapter plumbing fitting snugly sits in Mini's throat with a blank basket as a cap.  That leaves more than enough room for 2-3 shots worth of beans (total cost: $0.69).  On that subject, suggestions on cutting the hopper down are welcome.  I'm worried about cracking it, it isn't very thick.  I already have an extra doser lid (great idea by the way).

Thanks again for the quick response.  Off to the pool for awhile (July 4th holiday)!

-- Dan

 
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espresso_jim
Senior Member
espresso_jim
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 325
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Drip: Technivorm Moccamaster...
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 8:39am
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

dan_kehn Said:

I guess the price scare worked, I took the bait and bought a Mini Mazzer... now a question related to this thread:  What is the approximate mapping of Rocky to Mazzer settings?  I usually grind with Rocky in the 3-6 range (my Rocky's zero point is truly zero).  I tried my first shot with the Mazzer and choked the shot royally, spitting most into the overflow tube.  Not pretty.  :-o

I have no feel for the fineness scale for Mazzer.  I started at absolute zero, most members suggest that is the right number.  The manual, as usual, isn't every enlightening.  Suggestions?

-- Dan

Posted July 4, 2003 link

Mazzers come with an arrow on the adjustment ring.  When pointing at a 6 o'clock position as you look at the Mazzer is often a good starting point for grinding a shot.  I started there the first time and got an almost perfect shot.  On my home roasts, I don't vary from this more than an indent or two between the numbers.  On store roasted coffees, I sometimes have to grind finer by 3 -4 indents.  I recommend starting with the arrow on the Mazzer and go from there.  I never even bothered to find the zero point as it is not necessary.

Rocky's tend to drift in grind a bit when turned up and then back down.  Mazzers will not do this because of the patentend spring torsion system.  I played with other grinders while waiting for the Mini to arrive last year.  When it finally (seemed like forever, was actually a few days) arrived, I was blown away over the difference it made in the shot.  This was from the first shot using the Mini.  

For me, it is all about consistency with ease.  I know and expect a great shot everytime and get it from the equipment I have.  Was it expensive? That's relative.  I got what I paid for and the machines deliver quality espresso consistently.  To me, that's paying a fair price to get what I expect in great espresso.

I have come to rely on my Mazzer and it becomes part of the background in the things I do to make great espresso.  It doesn't spill if I pull the doser lever smoothly. It is static free. It is 100% reliable. It is totally consistent and the grounds produce sweet espresso.  There is no messing around with it.  From day to day, I know how fresh my espresso is and adjust the grind accordingly. Ususally, no test shots required (except perhaps on a new roast/blend I haven't done before). The Mazzer simply does its job everytime.  It is one of the few Italian machines that have those great looks and its build quality is atypical Italian (in other words solid and well built).

Enjoy your Mazzer Mini.  From the sounds of things, we may be the lucky ones who were able to get one at a reasonable price.

 
Jim
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 9:29am
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

dan_kehn Said:

I have no feel for the fineness scale for Mazzer.  I started at absolute zero, most members suggest that is the right number.  The manual, as usual, isn't every enlightening.  Suggestions?


Hey Dan,

Happy Independence Day! & long weekend. {:-D
Congratulations on the upgrade to the Valentina & the Mazzer, the Valentina looks to be an awesome machine, & like ya said in your email to me on June 16th, "I'm busting the bank, working a few extra
weekends". Man I don't know how you managed to swing it.., but that's excellent!!
{:-)

On my Rocky the zero point is +1 & I grind for Silvia @ 5 or 6. At #4 on Mini's ring, the bottom tail on the #4, my zero point on the Mini is 3 notchs to the right of this.

Moving coarser, towards the higher numbers 4 --> 5  (turning the dial clockwise), I'm at 13 divisions, which is between the notchs. Or from the centered (6 o'clock) sticker arrow on the ring, pointing to the notch in the grinder case, I'm notch finer, to the left of the arrow(counterclockwise).

I never have had to vary anymore than to 1 notch, even with the Swift triple basket! {:-O
Like Jim's saying, that's been my experience too, & I'm in full agreement!
Cheers!

 
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 1:04pm
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

espresso_jim Said:

Mazzers come with an arrow on the adjustment ring.  When pointing at a 6 o'clock position as you look at the Mazzer is often a good starting point for grinding a shot.  I started there the first time and got an almost perfect shot.  On my home roasts, I don't vary from this more than an indent or two between the numbers.

I tried right on the sticker arrow (about half way between 1 and 2).  Barely one ounce for a 30+ second pull.  Hmmphf.  I moved to 2 and tried again.  Still too fine, but better.  Decided to ask you two for a further clarification before burning through more beans.  

BTW, just to verify that Valentina isn't throwing me off, I used Rocky to grind a shot (about 17g).  Very good to excellent.  I'm surprised how much hotter the PF is after an hour compared to Silvia.  I'm using my Rancilio commercial PF (it's nicer than the stock Valentina PF) and I can't hold onto the handle beyond the "fat" part because it's too hot; the basket is hot, hot, hot.  I really expected a horribly burnt shot.  Not at all.  Surprising.

CraigA Said:

Hey Dan,

Happy Independence Day! & long weekend. {:-D
Congratulation's on the upgrade to the Valentina & the Mazzer, the Valentina look's to be an awesome machine, & like ya said in your email to me on June 16th, "I'm busting the bank, working a few extra weekends". Man I don't know how you managed to swing it.., but that's excellent!!
{:-)

Happy (belated) Flag Day!

Three 80+ hour workweeks and a bad case of "occupational overuse" (polite term for carpal tunnel syndrome), that's how... :-o  Believe it or not, some websites pay to publish what I write in my spare time, or have me review their manuscripts.  My wife allows me discretion on spending those funds.  But I digress.

On my Rocky the zero point is +1 & I grind for Silvia @ 5 or 6. At #4 on Mini's ring, the bottom tail on the #4, my zero point on the Mini is 3 notch's to the right of this.

Moving coarser, toward's the higher number's 4 --> 5  (turning the dial clockwise), I'm at 13 division's, which is between the notch's. Or from the centered sticker arrow on the ring, pointing to the notch in the grinder case, I'm notch finer, to the left of the arrow(counterclockwise).

I lost you there.  I thought that the sticker arrow was a good starting point.  Did I understand that you're somewhere in between 4 and 5?  Since my sticker point is at 1.5 (looks like 13 notches to me from the engraved 0), 4 and 5 are a long way away.  Did I understand you correctly?  Thanks for the clarification.

-- Dan

 
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

Actually, I'm just shy of #6, but that's where my sticker is.The more I try to explain it, the more the explanation is getting misconstrued.
Just like everyones (let's say Rocky) zero point is different, as are the Mini's, so the #'s are kind of pointless.

Anyway, what I was saying from my 3 zero point, I'm 13 notchs coarser, for a total of 16 from the tail of the #4. Maybe try that.

 
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espresso_jim
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espresso_jim
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 325
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Drip: Technivorm Moccamaster...
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Jul 4, 2003, 9:33pm
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

Like Craig says, don't sweat what numbers the arrow points in between.  The Minis are all different as we found out in discussions about 9 months ago. What you want to do is trust the factory arrow sticker wherever they have placed it.  

For example, my sitcker points to position 6.8 (8 detents from the 6 going toward seven).  I just checked on my setting.  It is 6.6 right now and this has been a consistent setting for my particular blend/roast which I do here at the house.  During the week, the setting might drift finer maybe .1 to .15 as the beans age a little.

This setting works for me pulling an 18 g, light tamp/polish (I let the shower head do the tamping), 2 oz double pulled at 24-26 seconds and at 9.5 bar pump pressure.  I do stop the pull if the crema starts to lighten.

For the Rocky, I understand that it is important to find the zero spot but I have had no reason to do so with the Mazzer because it is so stable.

 
Jim
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Sat Jul 5, 2003, 6:01am
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

espresso_jim Said:

For example, my sticker points to position 6.8 (8 detents from the 6 going toward seven).  I just checked on my setting.  It is 6.6 right now and this has been a consistent setting for my particular blend/roast which I do here at the house.  During the week, the setting might drift finer maybe .1 to .15 as the beans age a little.

Posted July 4, 2003 link

Thanks for your patient explanations.  I see now that I should have bought a 1/2 pound of "throwaway" beans and played.  I thought I'd be able to bypass that rite of passage, but alas no.

I understand that the sticker gives you the factory suggested setting and the engraved numbers are irrelevant for grinder-to-grinder comparisons.  I tried once more this morning, starting right on the sticker arrow.  Choked again.  My original poorly worded question was about the "scale" of the fineness, i.e., how much do you turn to compensate for n seconds (for Rocky, one notch is about two seconds).  I (wrongly?) assumed that Mazzer would allow more finesse, so I moved up seven notches to the engraved 2 (see below).  A Niagara Falls-like result, 2oz in 17 seconds.  Cutting the distance in half added a few more seconds.

I'll keep playing later (out of beans).  Based on your comments and Craig's, evidently you drift barely a notch away from the factory arrow.  That surprises me; a couple of millimeters is all you adjust for?  If that's the case, why not a worm drive to make it easier?

I falsely assumed that the threading was considerably finer than Rocky's.  Now that I've had them both apart, I see that there isn't a big difference, maybe Mazzer's threading is even a tad coarser.  So where Rocky might have a 3-4 notch "espresso zone" representing a couple of centimeters of movement on the dial, Mazzer has even less movement.  On the order of 5-6 millimeters if I understand correctly.  Wow, that's not much adjustment to play with.  Not far from "set it and forget it" plus or minus a few millimeters.

BTW, any tips on reducing what's left in the doser?  Even with judicious dusting using a pastry brush, 2-3 grams gets left behind.  Maybe I'm too used to my Rocky DL.  It could be "coaxed" into giving up all but less than 0.5g.

-- Dan

PS: A piece of trivia -- I checked and the burr "touch point" is at the engraved 0.  Maybe they've improved their manufacturing accuracy (or just dumb luck).

HB: mazzer_adjustment.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
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espresso_jim
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espresso_jim
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 325
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E
Drip: Technivorm Moccamaster...
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Jul 5, 2003, 9:49am
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

dan_kehn Said:

Based on your comments and Craig's, evidently you drift barely a notch away from the factory arrow.  That surprises me; a couple of millimeters is all you adjust for?  If that's the case, why not a worm drive to make it easier?

I falsely assumed that the threading was considerably finer than Rocky's.  Now that I've had them both apart, I see that there isn't a big difference, maybe Mazzer's threading is even a tad coarser.  So where Rocky might have a 3-4 notch "espresso zone" representing a couple of centimeters of movement on the dial, Mazzer has even less movement.  On the order of 5-6 millimeters if I understand correctly.  Wow, that's not much adjustment to play with.  Not far from "set it and forget it" plus or minus a few millimeters.

"Set it and forget it" is an appropriate statement. Remember the environment the Minis are designed for.  Commercial environments need something that doesn't have to be dialed in every shot.  Ever-so-slight adjustments during the day are probably more common in comercial environments. You are definitely correct regarding the truly minute adjustments.  If I am lazy, rather than adjust the grinder daily, I just watch my pour and when the stream starts to lighten, I stop it.  As to why no worm drive, I have no clue as to Mazzer's thinking.  They came up with a solid design that can be changed for different types of beans and reliably and quickly return to the previous setting.  (My guess here.)

BTW, any tips on reducing what's left in the doser?  Even with judicious dusting using a pastry brush, 2-3 grams gets left behind.  Maybe I'm too used to my Rocky DL.  It could be "coaxed" into giving up all but less than 0.5g.

Have you removed the finger guard, yet?  (Disclaimer: If you do remove the finger guard, NEVER stick your finger into the chute - even if you are 100% positive the Mini in turned off.  I  have accidentally chewed up the end on my brush this way.  The Mini is really quiet and I sometimes think it is off when it isn't.  I follow my rule and never stick my finger in the chute.) There are two screws you can loosen and pulling hard removes the guard.  Once you do, you can use the wooden end of a grinder brush to clean out the chute.  After doing this, turning the grinder on and off quickly will shoot out a little more.  Using the brush end, sweep the grinds evenly into the dispensing slots.  Dose your shot.  Once empty, I keep pulling the doser until I get most of the grounds out.  I never have the amount you are talking about.  When through pulling shots for a session, I use a Dust Devil corded vacuum that has a flexable hose to vacuum any stray grounds out of the dosing chamber and chute, grind chamber and around the outside.  I don't have the hopper on and just use a 58 mm tamper to hold the beans down while grinding, so it is easy to vacuum the grind chamber.

PS: A piece of trivia -- I checked and the burr "touch point" is at the engraved 0.  Maybe they've improved their manufacturing accuracy (or just dumb luck).

I vote for just dumb luck on Mazzer's part.  {:>)

 
Jim
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HB
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Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Sat Jul 5, 2003, 8:53pm
Subject: Re: Mazzer versus Rocky settings?
 

espresso_jim Said:

Have you removed the finger guard, yet?

Oh, that's what that thing was!  ;-)

I saw a website with a suggestion from Randy Glass to mount a brush and tube that prevents grounds from making it onto the "ledge".  Now I can't find it again.  Could someone post a link to it?  In the meantime, I placed an inverted small glass on top of the "pie" doser.  That deflects the majority of the grinds directly into the wedges.

BTW, I got another half pound and pulled out the 'ol shotglass and timer.  About 4-5 shots later... 27 seconds and two ounces at 5+ notches coarser than the factory sticker arrow.  The grind is quite "fluffy" as everyone says and the crema is noticibly more mousse-like.  I guess there really is a difference -- although I haven't yet done a Rocky versus Mazzer Mini rematch.  I already sold Silvia / Rocky and the new owner (a co-worker) wants them right away.  Once they're settled in their new home, maybe I can convince him to bring Rocky over for another bout, if only for old time's sake (sniff!).

-- Dan

 
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