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Someone, stop me please!    Now also M32 rehab  AND NOW ALSO WITH PICS!
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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Someone, stop me...  
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,734
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 7:34am
Subject: Someone, stop me please!    Now also M32 rehab  AND NOW ALSO WITH PICS!
 

Bought ANOTHER machine!

Sometimes I hate the freedom my job gives me, I was out and about doing my job thing and finished a little early so I went to one of my equipment haunts. I came across this machine at a price I just could not say no to, again (see my recent purchase of a Bunn brewer)

In a lot of ways, it is a side step for me. My current ECM Veneziano A1 is a E61, rotary pump, volumetric dosed HX machine with a 2.5l boiler.

This new one has a La Cimbali GH (not the E61 I amused to), rotary pump, volumetric dosed HX  with a 2.5 l boiler. Very much the same machine..... but different ;D

Some of the differences are that this new machine has a different computer inside, has a built in start/stop timer for auto on and off of the machine so I will not need a timer on the wall. The cord it has is a standard 120v 15a plug but when I get inside the machine I will check the current requirements.

Other things that are kind of nice, the boiler is fully insulated, well the hole it sits in is insulated. There is a water tank inside the machine, it looks to be autofill in addition to the machine being plumbed in. It has something to do with the new (at the time) boiler filling system that pulses water into the boiler every time the machine is uses vs filling to the probe then letting it drop until no contact. This is supposed to help the boiler maintain a better thermo stability and act like it was 30% larger. I am not sure I buy that but this is what the information says anyway.

If one of our very informed vendors who hang out on the board have any info on this machine or how it is supposed to work, I am all ears. The mfg website still lists the machine and has call for price so again to our vendors, is this still available as a new machine? I see older references to price in the $6K range new, I wonder about it currently. Anyway, the price was too good to walk by.

IDK if it has any issues but only hooking it up will tell. I plan to pick it up tonight but my schedule may push that until next week, if I have to go the weekend without it, it will drive me nuts!

This is the actual machine, I have all the loose parts, PFs grill for cup holder etc. I have located and downloaded the programing manual/operating instructions so at least I have that to play with!

EDITED for clarity to a few statements to prevent confusion.

calblacksmith: m32 bistro2.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,041
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 7:49am
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

Congrats on the machine, Wayne. I don't know if the attached documents help in any way. They're in Italian.

 m32 bistrò-class tall cups_drawings.zip

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,210
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 7:59am
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

It's not a "La Cimbali GH," but a La Cimbali M32 Bistro DT1 (DT stands for "Dosatronic."  As I understand La Cimbali jargon, the "GH" which you're probably reading off the manufacturer's tag, stands for "Group Head".  You probably already know most of this, but I'm laying out for the benefit of anyone else reading.  

La Cimbali has the information on its site for the M32, including links to specs and tech data.  I don't know whether or not the M32s are still in production, but several US retailers carry them, including Pasquini.  

Compared to the smaller M21 (like my DT1 "Casa"), the M32 not only has a bigger boiler, but "smart boiler technology," all of which allow the barista to bang out a lot of hot water and steam.  I don't see a large boiler as being of much benefit for home use, though; just more water to flush to keep it fresh.  But, you're used to that with your Elektra.

A couple of things to watch out for:  (1) A rotary pump La Cimbali is more finicky than an Elektra when it comes to puck prep because the Cimbali's water slams in at full pressure without any sort of pre-infusion at all.  (2) The particular group in the M32 series (same as the M21, M22 and M29) La Cimbali is not quite as stable as the group in the Elektra Sixties series; and will need at least a minor cooling flush after an idle longer than 60 seconds.  So you're going to have mind your temping.  

On the other hand, there are a lot of things to like about Cimbali.  The most striking of which is the very lively cup produced by the Cimbali group.  It's similar to La Marzocco's and I think you'll like it.  To my mind La Cimbali makes a cup better than all but the very best and equal to those.  

Volumetric dosing is primarily helpful to shut the machine off after a pre-determined volume and/or time if you have to leave in the middle of a shot.  But, in ordinary use, best practice is to cut off most shots manually, because visual appearance (blonding) is a better indicator of degree of infusion than time.  I programmed the buttons with a few extra ml and seconds "just in case," but otherwise operate my M21 as a semi-automatic.  

You may want to call Chris Coffee, the US importer and distributor, for further information.  It's been a few years since I've been there for anything, but in the past Pasquini was always very kind.   If Mr. Pasaquini is still around, you might find that a bottle of grappa smoothes the way.

BDL
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,734
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:02am
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

Rich,
Thanks a lot. Yes when I said GH I meant Group head, the La Cimbali group head is going to be much different than the E61 group head I am used to.  I should have been more specific too, my A1 is an ECM Veneziano A1, a machine now out of production but still is a rock solid performer day in and day out.

If they are still selling it, it must at least be current production with available parts. I have not found the mfg data tag unless it is the white piece of plastic that has been cleaned to death by former owners! It is under the water/steam arms, it has been washed so much, it is just white.

As I said in the first post, my current machine has volumetric dosing so I am quite used to it but the slam of water at full pressure will take a little getting used to!

When I get the machine home and get into it a little, I will indeed give Chris Coffee a call. They have a great rep on the board.

Thanks Nobby, I have some stuff but it is always fun to get more! I will give it a look, I am out the door and don't have a lot of time right now!

Dang it all, I can't wait to get it home, it is on the top of everything I am thinking about right now. I AM going to need to convert those EU fittings to US plumbing.

Rich, do you have any idea WHY there is a internal water tank AND a plumb in, the operator guide says to fill the internal tank on the D1 before operation, is this EVEN when it is plumbed in ?? There are water sensor probes into the tank so it does expect water to be there. On my ECM, I also have a built in tank but it is plumb in OR pour over so if the tank is dry and you are plumbed in, all is OK.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Angman
Senior Member
Angman
Joined: 8 Apr 2012
Posts: 239
Location: Vancouver BC
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Strega, MCal, Cimbali M20L
Grinder: K10 Fresh, HG One 83mm,...
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: Technivorm, Hario Woodneck,...
Roaster: Hottop 8828P
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

Great find.  Is that label the price that you paid? If it is, then its a phenomenal find!
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Coffeenoobie
Senior Member
Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 3,023
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

Dude, I hate you.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,210
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 3:43pm
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

Don't know if the reservoir needs water in it if the machine is to filled via direct line, but for lots of reasons I'm guessing not.  The largest: How would you keep the water in the reservoir from getting foul if it just sat?  

I apologize for assuming your ECM A1 was an Elektra and hope it's feelings weren't hurt.  

Welcome to Cimbali land,
Rich
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,259
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

I for one enjoy your machine buying adventures. I know its easy for me to say its not my money. So I guess I get to tag along and enjoy the ride. So keep us updated on how it goes.
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PeterWWbeagle
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 70
Location: Denver
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Anita,CMA...
Grinder: Super Jolly, Mini, Macap
Vac Pot: Aeropress
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 9:40pm
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

calblacksmith Said:

Rich, do you have any idea WHY there is a internal water tank AND a plumb in, the operator guide says to fill the internal tank on the D1 before operation, is this EVEN when it is plumbed in ?? There are water sensor probes into the tank so it does expect water to be there. On my ECM, I also have a built in tank but it is plumb in OR pour over so if the tank is dry and you are plumbed in, all is OK.

Posted September 12, 2013 link

Congrats Wayne.  I have seen several high end commercial machines with tank and plumb in.  The manuals discuss the internal tank is to deal (eliminate the problem of) with line pressure fluctuations. a line feed tank gives the pump has consistent source of water pressure to draw from.  Schomer had a thread or article that he converted all his direct plumb in to feed to a simple float valve tank which the pumps pull from.. said he noticed shot quality varying during the day as line pressure fluctuated.   Lots of the threads that virtually all rotary pumps do not need line pressure, simple gravity feed is fine
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,734
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 6:05am
Subject: Re: Someone, stop me please!
 

Good morning guys!

First, no, it was my mistake about the A1 issue, and how could I be upset about someone thinking I had a Elektra ? NO don't give it a second thought.

No that is not the price, it is the lot number in an auction, I WISH it was the price!!!

It went home with me last night and it is a mixed bag. The pump is stuck but that isn't a huge thing, the pump was stuck on my current machine and once it was unfrozen, it has been working fine for years now. A button or two don't work but my guess is that the contacts may be dirty, it is the single shot, small drink button, one I likely will never use anyway! The boiler started to heat up but it wasn't on long enough to get hot, or even more than just warm.

The biggest thing is that the computer board that displays all the program information does not display anything. I am going to contact service and see what may be wrong. I hope it is a bad connection or something easy but I may be looking at a new board.

I think the machine USED to be pourover but that whole system has been disconnected. The line from the water tank has been cut and sealed, the entry to the water pump has been rerouted with a copper line to the bottom of the machine and the electric contacts that are in the water tank to establish water level have been connected perm so the probes are not used at all. At first I thought the hole the water inlet under the machine was made by an installer but looking close, I now think it was made at the factory. There is also a bracket riveted on to hold the water inlet fitting and the copper line has some very factory looking bends to route it.

The information on the mfg sticker while unreadable in normal light, when angled to get a reflection, you can just make out the information. It is a stock 115 v so the plug is correct. It was made in 9-2004 so it is 9 years old this month. As the display board is NG, shot count is an unknown.

The unit was sold as working and I took them at their word. I would not have bid as high as I did if I knew there were issues like the display board. They are a reputable company though and I have done business with them for years so I am confident that I may be able to return it though the contract says as is where is, they do hundreds of thousands of dollars of business, likely more than a million a year so this is small change for them. In the auction, I was number 81 and there were more people after me. They auction every two weeks and the "sales floor" is about 10,000 square feet divided in half. They prep one half and sell on the other half then switch for the next auction. Trucks are always moving new stuff in. Everything from Pizza ovens, walk in refers the size of most peoples living rooms, feeezers, dishwashing stations, complete restaurant setups, booths, counters, coffee bars and everything between all for sale at the same time.

Everything bought there needs to be cleaned and serviced but if there are known problems it is so noted and is openly disclosed. Between auctions, they sell retail too, the prices are higher but still better than nearly any other place I know. Last year, I bought an excellent condition Traulson double door (top/bottom not side to side) commercial refer on wheels so you can clean under/around it, out the door for $600 (retail, not auction).

Anyway, I will be contacting La Cimballi service about this "issue" as soon as they open this morning. If the bord needs replacement and it is a fair price, I will likely just do it. If the price is up there in price, I will return the machine but I need to know all the information ASAP so a fair conclusion can be found.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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