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Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Silvia PID...  
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Burner0000
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,090
Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia, VFA Expres...
Grinder: Macap MX/VFA N1464/Kyocera...
Drip: Manual Drip, French Press
Roaster: Behmor 1600 / Sonofresco
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 1:03pm
Subject: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

I have decided I would like to install a brew temp only PID on my Silvia..  I am aware of the "extrenal" temp probe that comes with the machine installed.  Most of the PID kits out there just re attach to the same probe to allow adjustment to temp..  Has anybody tried installing an internal temp probe for more accurate water temp?  I figure this should be pretty easy considering almost all commercial boilers have this.  I'd like to see if this is possible before I go shopping for all of the parts.  


Like to install an external 1/32 din PID + External pressure gauge I can hide behind the machine. (Already got the gauge to fit on the portafilter for pressure adjust.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

Here may be what you want.

Click Here (shoppidsilvia.com)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
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Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

The above is using the only unused port that I know of on Silvia.  Otherwise something like this, but it is custom, so it could be done similar for Silvia.  

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/615453

I remember thinking through this at one time, and in fact I considered selling the Gaggia and getting Silvia just before the PID.  I could not find a convenient port on Gaggia and wanted an internal probe. Then I saw the front screw on the Silvia.  After consideration, internal and external thermocouples have similarities.  You want to have a desired temperature in the puck/PF.  A thermofilter will help to find that temperature and then you set the PID, Arduino, or other temperature device to get that.  Since you do not have a way to measure puck water temperature and use that value to instantaneously change the boiler water temperature, you deal with offsets to get the desired cup temperature.  Does it really matter if you have boiler, or boiler water temperature?  Either is still offset.  Gaggia has a small boiler and cools quickly, if allowed, with incoming.  Silvia exits to a group not under the boiler or water so there is a necessary offset.  The offsets work well enough that you have to weigh how much you want to spend to gain water temperature, but still have an offset.  Internal seems better, neater and if done for the same price I might go there.  I recognize that much of this is opinion, and YMMV :)

One other note, steam control is a nice addition, whether purchased or DIY add on.  You do not have to give up anything.  Done with another SSR or with a charger, or 9v battery as DIY on the inexpensive "brew" PID.  Again, YMMV.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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jonr
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Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 298
Location: Americas
Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

An external probe is effected by ambient air temperature (which varies) and has the mass of the boiler wall to create additional lag (ie, an offset in either direction).   So only under steady state conditions and at a fixed ambient temp will there be a fixed offset between internal and external probes.  I would expect an internal probe to be more accurate and respond faster (but still have some variable offset from brew head temp and some lag).

Measuring and adjusting out the ambient temperature's effect on an external probe is on my to-do list.
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Burner0000
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,090
Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Rancilio Silvia, VFA Expres...
Grinder: Macap MX/VFA N1464/Kyocera...
Drip: Manual Drip, French Press
Roaster: Behmor 1600 / Sonofresco
Posted Thu Aug 8, 2013, 4:46am
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

Thx guys!

I was looking into how and where I would install the temp probe like the M6 D4F supplied above.. I would have to drill a hole into the boiler and thread it which is a lot of work for only 15'F reading difference.. I would love to have steam temp adjust as well but I wan't to keep the cost down.   As for the reason I was thinking in water boiler probe was to get hotter water from the steam arm for Americano's and such.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Aug 8, 2013, 9:14am
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

I am not sure how you are counting costs for the steam portion.  Auber 1512 1/32 generic PID, not kit with SSR and RTD sensor, or if you want a kit, then the basic kit and add steam as follows.  The steam add is a mini charger such as for an old phone or headset and 2 $1 diodes.  Tasseloff on the forum did it with 2 SSR and no charger and others have used chargers that they had laying around, or a 9v replaceable battery.  Look up Tasseloff Silvia PID thread, or my Gaggia PID thread.  The steam idea was from years earlier done on Silvia.  If you read the Gaggia PID thread from about page 15 on, there is almost a step by step for Gaggia and very similar for Silvia.

Do not worry about offsets and internal vs external readings, set to get proper hot water at the puck.

Most important is to have fun with it.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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faster
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2013
Posts: 93
Location: France
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ISOMAC TEA II
Grinder: Rossi RR45
Roaster: PIDed, Modified "My...
Posted Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:41am
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

I did a long research and ended up with a nice PID system 1/32 DIN, 12VDC driven, that I fitted into a small plastic box, that I dremeled out to fit it in.
Got 25A SSR, 220VAC to12VDC 6W transformer, sensor, electrical connectors, some wire the whole kit for about ~$50.

I insulated the pump compartment to make Silvia more quiet and I insulated the water tank with a pipe insulation 60mm/2" ID 6mm=1//4" thick good quality...cost about $3 for a 3'/1m length. Because the insulation "curls" I used a lot of aluminium tape, to seal the bits together.
Sensor is buried under of course...no drifting;-)
It works really good, lots of settings possible. It is stable and has fast recovery time.
So far I am very happy with it, really beats temp surfing...

jonr Said:

Measuring and adjusting out the ambient temperature's effect on an external probe is on my to-do list.

Posted August 7, 2013 link

LOL..i like that...
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,864
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Aug 9, 2013, 3:57am
Subject: Re: Silvia PID (internal temp probe)
 

Yes, a probe in the water is the most accurate way but I have a PID attached in the stock position and it works just fine. The shell of the boiler is pretty thick so if you want to drill and tap it, most likely you will be fine.  The steam function is very nice and you may want to rethink it.
You may want to review this thread
"full Silvia rebuild and minor mod with pics."
And the linked thread where I add a PID
To see clearly inside Sylvia:-)

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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