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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 488
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 1:49pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

I just assumed that since it says 'includes crema' that youd look at it right after the pour. The chart tells you the weight and volume (oz and ml) so it's got you covered either way.

I am just making sure that we are both understanding each other. You pull your shots lungo style and i'm perfectly alright with that. ;) Now I just need to see how much to reduce the brew alarm since thats the only one affected. For going from 3oz to 2oz. You think about 242 would be a good starting point? You figure that 2 oz would be 2/3 of the difference of 255 (original alarm) and 214 (idle temp) since 2 oz is 2/3 of 3 oz? Or does this operate a little differently?

I understand the complexity since crema is not consistent between people or even pours. That way it's removal makes it more definite to measure.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 1:58pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

I do not think that it is very linear.  You are using temperature to make "on" time.  "On" time adds heat calories to offset cold water cold calories.  At any rate, you pick a new temperature and then taste.  I would use the thermfilter, but I did not make a way to adjust the volume down.  It puts out 50 ml of water volume. so 50 ml of cold water into the machine.  Go 249 and 250F and see where you are.  Let a shot dissipate for several seconds and estimate that actual water/espresso volume.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat Mar 9, 2013, 10:44am
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and Gaggia PID install
 

Brianl, how is the system working.  Tried multiple shots?  Any difference in the cup?  Any problems?

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 488
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Mar 9, 2013, 10:47am
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and Gaggia PID install
 

Still tuning the shot but the combination of the brew and stream control makes a super short warm up time between a shot and streaming.

Got great stream pressure
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat Mar 9, 2013, 11:37am
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and Gaggia PID install
 

The brew to steam time seems to be about cut in half.  That makes some sense.  Say that you add about 15 seconds of heater "on time" is the 25 - 30 seconds of pump on.  That 15 seconds and about 15 seconds to get to good steam after brew would have taken 30 seconds of wait, not half.  I found similar and it is nice to know that it is just not my bias of how wthe system should work.

Steam not cycles at about 280 - 290F instead of the wider OEM stat swings, so higher over all temperature and better steam.  You can really notice if you click off the staem switch and then watch the steam pressure drop off with temperature, dy at 260F.  All known info that temperture and pressure are that related, just more meaningful when you experience it.

One other note.  I read the HB site you sent.  The beverage was in grams and that would be most equivalent to volume of liquid with dissipated crema.  16 gms coffee is for 32 gms beverage for regular espresso and 18 gms is for 45 gms beverage.  My 45 - 50 ml of beverage, 80ish ml of initial beverage with full nondissipaated crema is still 45 - 50 gms beverage.  The colums with gross volume incl crema are much more variable.  In addition, the 18 gm regular  and the 16 gm lungo are not so different unless you are really going to weigh.  The whole point of that is that we need to know water through the boiler, water into the puck, whether in the cup as crema or liquid, total weight or dissipated volume is close.  Hope that we understand similarily, though only the water through the boiler really matters.  The output in weight or dissipated volume, is to try to estimate that flow, not to label what is in the cup.

Please post with results when you feel that you are tuned, or for discussion if trouble tuning.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 488
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Mar 9, 2013, 11:55am
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and Gaggia PID install
 

I understand now that you were asking water through group. Was confused before.

I just ordered a new 18g basket and will test on arrival. Currently have a 15g and 22g one.

So far I'm getting good results but may need a thermo to get group temp.
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 488
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sun May 5, 2013, 10:34am
Subject: Re: Gaggia Classic SBDU Preheat PID Temperature Recovery and Stability, Steam
 

So far it's working well. How long do you warm up the stream after a brew? I feel like mine fluctuates between 250 and 300 at first.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sun May 5, 2013, 1:02pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia Classic PID
 

Brian, great to hear from you. I'm very happy to hear that the equipment and settings work well. I am using a set temperature of 214 with the brew alarm set at 256 and 255. The steam alarm is set at 286 and 285. If I hit steam shortly after a brew it seems like it is about 10 - 15 seconds to get to 260 and I crack the steam valve. I'm thinking another 10 seconds, though I have not timed it, to get to about 280. I fluctuate at about 285 down to about 270 for a short time and then will level off at about 280 to 285. I don't see a dip close to 250. That might happen if I opened the steam valve widely when I first passed 260. I do get less temperature fluctuation after I've been at steam temperature for perhaps 15 to 20 seconds, but I do not wait for that to begin steaming. I think I mentioned before that I opened the steam valve about 260 and then start steaming as soon as the wet steam dissipates.

I get a fair amount of wet steam even if I wait for the boiler temperature to get to 280 before I crack the steam valve. My theory is that unlike a heat exchange machine our boilers are full to the top and must clear off a little bit of wet steam to get some headroom.

I am currently using a brew volume, measured with the crema dissipated, of about 30 to 35 mL.

I would be happy to see your settings and hear your thoughts.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 488
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue May 7, 2013, 8:08am
Subject: Re: Gaggia Classic PID
 

I have also been following your lead with the 214 starting temp with a 2 second steam press and wait for it to trickle up to 216 then pull. my brew alarm is around 245 and 244 as I usually pull a ristretto (same ml as you except mine includes crema). I have the same steam alarm as you do. I think my problem might be purging the steam wand too quickly (normally twice for a second each back to back).

At 260 do you just do a slight open of the steam value or do you do a quick purge? Or do you purge by just cracking the steam valve open just a bit and letting it drip out? I only really make lattes on the weekend for the lady but I can just play with the temperatures later today and report back.

My lady started whipping together some recipes for the lattes and they are delish. Nutella and maple syrup lattes....yum. I make it strong enough so the coffee still breaks through!
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed May 8, 2013, 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia Classic PID
 

I use about 3.5 - 4 seconds steam switch and then about 3 rest before brew.  This seemed fairly important to hold temperature when checked with the thermofilter.  I tried lesser times and the whole shot ran a degree or two cool. Of course YMMV and you can set by taste, but I would try the longer preheat.  Interestng that I am now down to 250 - 249F on brew.  I have slowly marched down as I decreased the double volume, as you would expect.  Sounds like we are getting similar results.  I would like to know your shot volume with dissipated or 90% dissipated crema for brew water volume comparison.

I crack the steam valve a little and let it steam and watch the temperature still rise quickly.  When I open it wide the first time to get rid of wet steam the temperature also falls to say 270f.  It can take a few/several seconds to begin to get dry steam if the valve is open much over 1/4 turn and 1/4 is about where I steam.

It would be interesting to automate the preheat using a PID set for pre-infusion.  I don't care much about pre-infusion on the Gaggia from my reading, but the on and then off cycle could automate the pre-steam.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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