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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > PID on ECM  
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jcoffeecat
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jcoffeecat
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: toronto canada
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: saeco,cremina
Grinder: faema,gagia
Roaster: topper5,
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 7:12am
Subject: PID on ECM
 

I'm contemplating installing a PID on my ECM GIOTTO. Has anyone done it? should I bother?where the results good? what's the best spot for thermo sensor?
Thanks
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,044
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
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Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 7:49am
Subject: Re: PID on ECM
 

The ECM Giotto is a HX machine, isn't it? A PID, while being feasible, doesn't make much sense on such a machine, because the boiler is on steaming temperature and you can't influence brewing temperature directly. So, my advise is to safe your money.

 
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"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,774
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 9:41am
Subject: Re: PID on ECM
 

Due to the way a HX machine works, you will NOT affect the brew temp in any useful way but if you have money to burn and just have to work on something, you probably will not harm your machine, you just will be controlling your STEAM temp to a tighter dead band. I am going to try putting one on a HX machine that needs a Pstat but I have no expectation of it doing anything to the brew temp, it is just a less expensive way to get the machine running again as I have a PID setup and I would have to buy a Pstat. YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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jcoffeecat
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jcoffeecat
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: toronto canada
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: saeco,cremina
Grinder: faema,gagia
Roaster: topper5,
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:12am
Subject: Re: PID on ECM
 

Thanks guy's.That's all pretty logical,and I'm glad my hesitation was justified.
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faster
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Joined: 27 May 2013
Posts: 93
Location: France
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ISOMAC TEA II
Grinder: Rossi RR45
Roaster: PIDed, Modified "My...
Posted Tue Sep 9, 2014, 1:28pm
Subject: Re: PID on ECM
 

NobbyR Said:

The ECM Giotto is a HX machine, isn't it? A PID, while being feasible, doesn't make much sense on such a machine, because the boiler is on steaming temperature and you can't influence brewing temperature directly. So, my advise is to safe your money.

Posted October 30, 2012 link

I dug out this old thread and I wonder how it would work if I installed a PID on the steam temp and lowered it to let's say ~98C ?...to get the ideal 92-94C in the puck?

I don't use steam at all, (sometimes water for tea) and the water wasted on flushing/cooling makes me wonder...It reminds me of temp surfing on Silvia, except this time I dump water. Adding A temp monitor in GH doesn't cure the water waste, just temp for a shot...

I really like the machine and the E61 group, just the constant cooling makes me wonder...

Those knowing SBDU- HX machines, what do you think?

TIA:-)
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,774
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Sep 10, 2014, 8:45am
Subject: Re: PID on ECM
 

Your idea is not new, it has been kicked around a lot.
The cooling flush is NOT temp surfing. The water in the HX circuit is over temp but the water in the boilier is correct. Once the over temp water is cleared from the system then your temps will be very consistent and at the proper temp, unlike temp surfing on a Sylvia where you try to catch the correct temp based on holding your mouth just correct, licking your finger and seeing which way the wind is blowing, watching lights and timing since they turn on or off and even then not knowing what you are really getting.

The big problem with what you are doing is that when you drop the temp of the boiler to brew temp then as you expect, the water in the HX will get to that temp and stay there all day. When you pull the shot then you get ONE shot at the proper temp, then you need to wait for the water to heat again. The volume of the HX system is designed around the steam boiler being set for steaming, the flow of water through the HX system is heated to the proper temp when the boiler is at the proper temp. If you only want to pull one shot, wait 10 minutes then pull one shot, it will work. If you want to pull two or more shots in a row then you will be hopelessly too cold on the second and following shots. What you will have achieved is turning a well designed HX machine into a poorly operating SBDU.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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faster
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2013
Posts: 93
Location: France
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ISOMAC TEA II
Grinder: Rossi RR45
Roaster: PIDed, Modified "My...
Posted Wed Sep 10, 2014, 11:39pm
Subject: Re: PID on ECM
 

calblacksmith Said:

Your idea is not new, it has been kicked around a lot.
The cooling flush is NOT temp surfing. The water in the HX circuit is over temp but the water in the boilier is correct. Once the over temp water is cleared from the system then your temps will be very consistent and at the proper temp, unlike temp surfing on a Sylvia where you try to catch the correct temp based on holding your mouth just correct, licking your finger and seeing which way the wind is blowing, watching lights and timing since they turn on or off and even then not knowing what you are really getting.

The big problem with what you are doing is that when you drop the temp of the boiler to brew temp then as you expect, the water in the HX will get to that temp and stay there all day. When you pull the shot then you get ONE shot at the proper temp, then you need to wait for the water to heat again. The volume of the HX system is designed around the steam boiler being set for steaming, the flow of water through the HX system is heated to the proper temp when the boiler is at the proper temp. If you only want to pull one shot, wait 10 minutes then pull one shot, it will work. If you want to pull two or more shots in a row then you will be hopelessly too cold on the second and following shots. What you will have achieved is turning a well designed HX machine into a poorly operating SBDU.

Posted September 10, 2014 link

Thanks a lot for your detailed and well explained info.

Now it's clear to me...

Cheers
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