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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Duetto Steam...  
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 847
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 11:50am
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

calblacksmith Said:

Considering that this is your thread, I take it that you are OK with the slight thread drift!

Posted October 19, 2012 link

The most edifying conversations usually do drift as knowledge and ideas are exchanged so its all good. ;0)

calblacksmith Said:

I think that the larger the boiler, the less this is going to matter as you can only draw steam so fast from a boiler when steaming or you will blow the milk out of the pitcher and a larger boiler will have a larger reserve to make up for any heater lag or overshoot.

Posted October 19, 2012 link

Granted bigger boiler is better. I canít change my boiler size but I could fit it with a pressurestat. It sounds like it would make a difference but IDK if it would be enough to show up in the user experience. For folks running the Duetto specifically in the 15AMP mode were both heaters are never on at the same time getting to 20AMP mode were the are both on at once would do as much or more good then going from PID to Stat.

I am trying hard to talk myself down from the ledge on a 2 group HX I found.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,722
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 2:06pm
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

jwoodyu Said:

I am trying hard to talk myself down from the ledge on a 2 group HX I found.

Posted October 19, 2012 link

LOL!!!!! why would you want to do that??????? :D:D:D:D

Back to the point.

This is ALL in mho and I have no facts or data to back it up, only "feelings" so take it for what it is worth, nah, I owe you a refund if you take it but here it is anyway.

It is true you can't change the boiler (I don't think you need to either) but on the only steaming side of things, if what you have is working, I would leave it alone. I really don't think there would be much if at all of a difference on the user side of things regardless of PID or Pstat. Now if you FEEL THE NEED, THE NEED TO FEED your lust, well then that is an entirely different thing now isn't it? :P

What did you find for a 2 gp. I have an old Brazilia and it is a great machine. OLD and ugly, it still pulls a great shot and it only cost me $75 and a one hour drive each way to get it.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 847
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 2:39pm
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

The steaming is already plenty good enough to meet the need but Underwood's axiom states "more is better but it is never enough" :0)

A friend has a Jubile that we are trying to come to terms on. There is an old debt and some bartering involved.  I value my friend more than that machine but if i can put the deal together I am a gonna. I sent my oldest two off to college at the same time for the first time this year so money is going on the door at rate that can only be described as "obscene", so we will have to see about machine. If i do the Duetto is going to be the daily driver kitchen machine and that Jubile is going on the bar so it can be seen in a full 360.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,404
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Oct 20, 2012, 2:11am
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

I'm not Mr Pressurestat, electronic control is the way to go, just not the way Gicar and the coffee machine manufacturers have implemented it. I "think" you are unlucky in having a lower power steam element in the US mine was 1400W, but I think somewhere along the line the US ones became 1200W.

Gicars PID has 3 channels, all sharing the same PID algorithm....what's that about? It's not really that likely in a 1 group machine that you want the same PID algorithm applied to 3 different sensors and in a multigroup machine, you may not want them all at the same temperature (so you would have a PID for each group).....It's just a bit of a nonsense. It would be nice if T2 simply had an on/off thermostat type control with no P,I and D parameters to allow for straight on/off control of the steam boiler.

How much is steaming effected, depends on the specific steam tip and size of holes.....there will be an effect it might be quite small (depending on certain things), bumping up the setpoint values, is not the greatest option to overcome it, because the machine is then just running hotter than it needs to be. We can come up with all sorts of reasons etc.. but at the end of the day Gicar is not designing these PIDs correctly for the job they are being used for and in fact not really for any implementation where they control a steam boiler. It's time it was changed, time people said something and perhaps, just perhaps, this will get back to Gicar, who can them program their unit a little better.

Over the years I have found it best to maintain steam pressure at a higher value to get the best steaming....not dropping lower than around 0.75 bar towards the end of the main steaming phase seems to be optimum and letting it drop much lower is not hugely productive in terms of taste or texture...taste in terms of steaming speed, again too slow is not good, so the tip shouldn't be too small (to try and maintain pressure, or the milk amount steamed, too large for the machine.

This passive acceptance of something that's not right is something that needs to change...it's another reason you all have 1.8 litre internal water tanks and I have a nearly 3 litre one....Izzo could have implemented a system similar to mine or to Rockets for the water tank and given you a nice internal one..They didn't and gradually the design of the tin changes to make it impossible to retrofit a larger tank and more difficult to add one in production.....BUT you did get "new knobs". Just testing the latest Dutto (MK1V is it), and the change to the drip tray I'm not loving. It's bigger than it used to be outside, but holds less than 1/2 what it used to. I will mention it in my review, it will get ignored, people will buy it and in a few years people will have forgot the old drip tray can hold nearly 2 litres and was smaller to handle.
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floydo
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Pid Silvia, La Pavoni, Alex...
Grinder: Macap M4
Posted Mon Oct 22, 2012, 11:31am
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

This has been an interesting thread.  I have one of the early duettos, single PID, pressurestat steam, now with SSRs, and new valves and wands.  I had, what I thought was wet steam that was "spurty".   Originally the valves and burn steam wands were spurty, then changing to the new valves and wands it seemed maybe a bit more obvious, but I was also sensitized.  So I began a series of experiments measuring steam tank volume, water levels (since you can adjust water sensor height), pressures and the steam appearance.  I've recorded videos and have lots of data, but did find in summary that -

Higher tank water levels make steam wetter (you can move the water sensor up and down)
Higher pressures appear to make steam less wet and less spurty.

Tank volume is specified without the heating element and other probes displacements taken into consideration so the water volume is less than specified tank volume - Just an interesting factoid

Recently after reading comments on the burn steam wands better performance than no burn, I pulled out the original burn steam wand and mounted it.  What was very surprising was going to the no burn wand with the new valves the wet spurty behavior essentially disappeared.  Surprised, I went back to old videos and there was the original burn wands with original valves spurting at the same pressures.....The conclusion is that there is something in the old valve or valve wand combination that causes the steam to appear to spurt even after being on for a period of time.  This seems to increase as the pressure drops.  New valve new no burn wand appears to be similar.  But the old burn wand with the new valves the steam is "improved" - consistent with the title of this thread.

Not sure why I got this wand result, but there has to be something that creates irregular turbulence making steam have wet volumes (I call spurting).

To check that the  the heating element isn't exposed remove the water sensor, clean it while at it, measure the depth of the tip of the heating element.  At the lowest point I can immerse the stock water sensor it is 0.3" above the heating element tip).  Since the element has a 90deg bend in it, it appears they limit the immersion depth to a safe level, but these are Italian, and you should check your machine if playing this game :).  the Gicar has a deadband/time delay in filling so the water level does vary by about 0.3-0.5" or so from the sensor tip after a fill.

Bottom line, it appears raised pressure (I run up to 1.5bar) and lowered water level (~60ish% tank volume) with the good old burn wand seems best.  

One thing different in my setup is the burn wand is smaller internal diameter than the no burn with the liner removed.  One could, if this were considered significant (I do not), buy a burn wand, since the two I have both share the same upper design - ball, spring, nut thread diameter.  However note the internal machine tubing is larger than either wand ID....

Dave, a huge contributor,  probably has lots more information on this, but even with PID control these two variables are significant.

Cheers
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mute
Senior Member


Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 97
Location: Collegeville, PA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bodum French Press
Posted Mon Oct 22, 2012, 3:13pm
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

Oops, I didn't realize EP search links expired. Here's the thing I am referring to, it's called an "Anti-scorch Clip": http://www.espressoparts.com/W15295
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GVDub
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Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 849
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Londinium I, Arrarex...
Grinder: Gaggia MD85, Dienes Mokka,...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Abid Clever
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Oct 22, 2012, 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

mute Said:

Oops, I didn't realize EP search links expired. Here's the thing I am referring to, it's called an "Anti-scorch Clip": http://www.espressoparts.com/W15295

Posted October 22, 2012 link

Or, make your own out of Sugru for much less, with a choice of colors, even.
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floydo
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Pid Silvia, La Pavoni, Alex...
Grinder: Macap M4
Posted Mon Oct 22, 2012, 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

GVDub Said:

Or, make your own out of Sugru for much less, with a choice of colors, even.

Posted October 22, 2012 link

Very interesting product!
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,722
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Oct 23, 2012, 6:04am
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

Or even a binder clip,
Click Here (www.staples.com)

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,024
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Tue Oct 23, 2012, 8:48am
Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
 

mute Said:

Oops, I didn't realize EP search links expired. Here's the thing I am referring to, it's called an "Anti-scorch Clip": http://www.espressoparts.com/W15295

Posted October 22, 2012 link

That is not the one I bought.  I bought a rubber sleeve to put on the wand...

http://www.espressoparts.com/W5089?&search_id=1926245

Of course, you can take one of the other suggestions and make your own.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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