calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,681 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Oct 18, 2012, 2:20pm Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
I think we can agree that I would not go out of my way to have that "feature" as it isn't a big deal to me but I also don't have issues with the wand I have. A quick half to full second blast of steam clears it out and then it is steam for as long as you want with nice dry steam from the 2.5l boiler. I never thought of it but a smaller boiler may have issues I don't have. Hymmm, that is something I might need to look into. The Sylvia V1 I rebuilt has a burnme wand and I have no problem with that machine either.... other than the weak steam and the short duration of it.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,722 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Thu Oct 18, 2012, 2:32pm Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
My experience with the Duetto II no-burn wand was that even after a thorough flush of steam, the steam coming out was not nearly as dry as it is after doing the "convert to burn me" mod.
I'll take a stab that the broken link in the post further up referred one to the rubber sleeves available on espresso parts for less than $5. If so, that is exactly how I handled being able to manipulate the wand after my conversion.
I have not tried to "go back" to no burn, and have absolutely NO desire to do so...none...ne...nee...ni...nein...nao...etc. I suspect it would be pretty darn easy though.
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 704 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Thu Oct 18, 2012, 2:46pm Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
calblacksmith Said:
I think we can agree that I would not go out of my way to have that "feature" as it isn't a big deal to me but I also don't have issues with the wand I have. A quick half to full second blast of steam clears it out and then it is steam for as long as you want with nice dry steam from the 2.5l boiler. I never thought of it but a smaller boiler may have issues I don't have. Hymmm, that is something I might need to look into. The Sylvia V1 I rebuilt has a burnme wand and I have no problem with that machine either.... other than the weak steam and the short duration of it.
As with most things is likely not one single factor. No question the no burn is part of it but I don't think my 1.8 liter boiler is the other part. If you give DaveUK earlier post a read he makes it good case for not using a PID on the steam boiler. In combination with the no burn I think we have the culprit. If jerking the liner out of the no burn does it then great. I might actually try controlling the steam boiler in a more traditional fashion.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
True enough, I could also just bump the PID on the steam too. I don't use that machine much anyway, well not enough to play with it to get it's best. For me, it used to be my work machine then it went to Yosemite to be in the cabin with us and it has just been setting in the shop since July.
The difference in pressure and duration I think is more a function of boiler size differences. My HX has a 2.5l boiler with a LOT of room to store steam and Sylvia has (from memory you would know much better than I) an 8 oz boiler, with a lot less space to capture steam.
I am really thinking of taking my MyPressi twist to work rather than taking Sylvia back in. I don't know what I am going to do but I know you are right though, I have not taken much time to optimize the Sylvia.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
My HX has a 2.5l boiler with a LOT of room to store steam and Sylvia has (from memory you would know much better than I) an 8 oz boiler, with a lot less space to capture steam.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,681 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 8:39am Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
That sounds right for the boiler size, I was just going by my mostly dim memory of the size.
I suppose I owe it to her to explore the abilities more but I have a machine hot all the time on the counter and the only time I really use her is on vacation anymore.
Perhaps I should sell her to someone who may enjoy her much more often than I do, ...... but then as things are, I have a back up to my back up machine with her on the bench! LOL!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 704 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 8:51am Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
calblacksmith Said:
True enough, I could also just bump the PID on the steam too. I don't use that machine much anyway, well not enough to play with it to get it's best. For me, it used to be my work machine then it went to Yosemite to be in the cabin with us and it has just been setting in the shop since July.
The difference in pressure and duration I think is more a function of boiler size differences. My HX has a 2.5l boiler with a LOT of room to store steam and Sylvia has (from memory you would know much better than I) an 8 oz boiler, with a lot less space to capture steam.
I am really thinking of taking my MyPressi twist to work rather than taking Sylvia back in. I don't know what I am going to do but I know you are right though, I have not taken much time to optimize the Sylvia.
I have been thinking about the PID vs Pressurestat on the steam boiler question and lets assume that for the sake of argument the boilers are the same size. Either way the boiler is at temp when crack the steam valve. Presumably either the pressurestat or PID kicks the heater on in short order. In the case of the stat it kicks the heater on, gets it to temp and then kicks off ignoring any “carry over heating”. The PID on the other hand kicks the heater on and off trying not to overshoot the temp. It would seem that the pressurestat machine is going to rover to its minimum setting more quickly but less precisely while the PID more precisely more precisely but less quickly.
I guess that make the question can the heating element really produce heat/steam quickly enough to replenish any meaningful part of the heat/steam being lost through the wand? If yes then having the heater on full and continuously while the steam valve is open is optimal. If no then it is all about the capacity of the steam boiler to hold steam because when its gone its gone until the valve is closed and the heater recovers PID or stat.
I get it that the 2.5l wont need to recover as soon as a 1.8l in the first place.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,681 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 9:56am Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
Considering that this is your thread, I take it that you are OK with the slight thread drift!
I had concerns if the PID would sense the change in temp as fast as a Pstat can sense a change in pressure when you take into account that the temp drop happens after the drop of pressure thus causing the boiler temp to drop. My addition of the PID to Sylvia which also takes command over the temp of steaming has shown to me at least, that yes, it can react very quickly indeed.
When steaming with Sylvia now, nearly as soon as the wand valve is opened, the heater comes on to make up the temp drop (even though the sensor is mounted to the boiler and not in the steam chamber), as the drop is fairly large VS a larger boiler, it comes on quickly enough to add time to the steam ability of the Sylvia, at least that is what I have seen but others may have different results.
The quick action of the PID/sensor has caused me to have a strong bias as to using a PID to replace a Pstat on a H/X machine when repair becomes need due to a worn Pstat. The PID will not change the way a HX works so it will not improve shot temp, that is still a skill the barista must learn and use but the use of an inexpensive PID, sensor and SSR to replace a faulty Pstat seems to be a viable and longer lasting option.
It just so happens that I have a 1 gp commercial machine that has a bad Pstat AND I have an extra PID w/sensor to use as a test. I just need to get around to doing the project!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,681 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Oct 19, 2012, 10:27am Subject: Re: Duetto Steam Wand Mod - Loving It!
To address your point of the heating curve differences between the Pstat and PID, I think that the slowing down of heating that the PID does, so to not overshoot the temp can be negated to a large extent by simply bumping up the temp on the PID to, say 5 or 8 F above the initial set point of the steam boiler. This would "raise the bar" so to speak on the PID so that it will delay slowing down the heater. You could also just open the dead band a bit as steam temp does not need the tighter regulation that a brew only boiler needs.
In the case of a DB, the slightly higher temp or lack of accuracy will have no practical negative effect at all and in the case of a HX (which by design has a larger steam boiler) you might need to flush a slight bit more or there may not be the need to bump the temp at all because you have a larger mass of water to heat, thus your temp will not rise as quickly per oz of water given the same size heater.
A dedicated steam boiler or a HX boiler has an air space to collect the steam at pressure while the SBDU does not. When you fill a SBDU boiler, you are filling it up full (at least that is the way Sylvia works) and the steam, at first is water flashing in the wand due to the lower pressure outside the boiler. After a little while the water level will drop in the SDBU boiler and you will slowly develop a space to allow the steam to collect inside the boiler, which is why you need to fill the boiler after steaming milk.
I think that the larger the boiler, the less this is going to matter as you can only draw steam so fast from a boiler when steaming or you will blow the milk out of the pitcher and a larger boiler will have a larger reserve to make up for any heater lag or overshoot.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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