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Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Restoring a...  
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Mpotoka
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Joined: 6 Jun 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Chicago
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia deluxe & Nuova Mac...
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Mon Jun 11, 2012, 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

Well shucks--a little more investigation and I discovered that what I thought was a plug in the top of the boiler was actually the top of the heat exchanger. With that plugged and a drain on the side of the boiler open, I am able to blow air through the heat exchanger into the boiler. Definately not a good sign.

The end of the boiler looks like it has a soldered on end. Is it possible for the people with the right tools to remove that cap and possibly repair the hole in the heat exchanger?  Any idea what that may cost?

I am guessing replacing the boiler is not a very good option on the machine?  It would mean I have about $1,000 invested total and I still don't know about all the other parts...

Mike
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,675
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 6:13am
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

OK, I am still confused.
My internet access blocks your link as it is not on the "approved list" of sites.
so I can not see your link.

The end of the HX should not be plugged, it is a straight through the boiler tube. One end is water in and the other end goes to the brew group so when you say it was plugged, that does not make sense to what I know about machines. I am not an expert by any means, I do not work on them for a living like others here do but I understand the basics of how they work and I have been inside several machines.

There are two inlets into the boiler, one for the water level and the other for the HX tube. There should be a Vacuum breaker and a safety pressure valve in addition to HX out, hot water out and steam out, and the water level probe, with a possible drain valve/plug.

Is it possible you are blowing through the hot water out or the steam out?

The hot water out ties into the boiler below the water level so when you open the valve you get hot water, the steam out is above the water level in the boiler.

The tube you show in your picture looks like the hot water out tube but that is just a guess. The steam out can be just a fitting on the top of the boiler or it MIGHT have a small tube on the end of it.

The HX tube is normally soldered through the boiler but it might have screw connections if it was designed to be removed. The boiler needs to be opened up if the HX tube is bad but I am not sure in my minds eye that you are checking the correct connections.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Mpotoka
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jun 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Chicago
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia deluxe & Nuova Mac...
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 10:12am
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

Ok I will try to explain.  I'm not sure what the link wouldn't work since it was just a .pdf of the parts book from Nuova Simonelli.

The machine has a plumbed in connection.  From the connection it goes first to the pump.  From the pump outlet it goes to a T-fitting in the back of the boiler.  Connected to one side of the T fitting is the electro-magnetic fill valve.  From the fill valve it then goes to the bottom of the boiler.  The other side of the T fitting pipes into the side of the heat exchanger tube assembly I pictured on page 1.  The tube assembly is a T--the water inlet from the pump comes in at the base of the T.  One side of the T is threaded into the heat exchanger--I have now confirmed that this connection is an approximately 1" tube running perpendicular through the middle of the boiler.  The other end of the heat exchanger has a plug in it--so if I pull both the plug and the tube assembly, I can see through the exchanger with a flashlight and tell that it is its own tube.  The other side of the heat exchanger tube assembly I showed in the photo is then piped up to the group head.

It seemed a little strange to me, because it seems the water from the pump can either go into the heat exchanger or pass directly through to the group head.  The heat exchanger certainly does not have an "in" and an "out", just this one tube going in, but perhaps there is something about thermal dynamics that causes the pump water to mix/enter in the heat exchanger--or maybe that T with the heat exchanger tube has a curve in it that forces the water into the heat exchanger first, and then the increased pressure pushes the water back through the T.  In any case, it appears that the heat exchanger tube assembly requires some 2 way water traffic...

Does that all make any sense?  I can take some more pictures tonight.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,675
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

The internet here at work will let me go to some websites but not others, if it is not on their approved list, I can not go there. Your link is not on our approved list so I can not see the link. The issue is on my end, not with your link.

I really want to see more of what you are looking at. I can see how it would work if the T isn't really a T but rater a fitting that is more of a diverter like you said. If the T flows straight through the tube in your picture, when the cold water enters the HX tube, it will, mix with the water in there and as it is being pushed up from the bottom of the HX due to entering through the tube in your pic, you get hot water flowing up and back toward the T fitting, which if the return went to the side of the T in a different channel in the T, you would then get heated water to the group head. There is no other way I can see right now that this could work. It is possible but it escapes me at the moment. More pics would be better. Yes though, I can see how the tube could be plugged at one end.

If the tube through the boiler does NOT have a hole in it and it is sealed from the boiler, you are OK regardless of how the magic of the T takes place. If there is a hole in the vert tube through the boiler, you have problems.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Mpotoka
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jun 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Chicago
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia deluxe & Nuova Mac...
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 1:59pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

Ok, here is a picture of the back side first.  The braided tube coming up from the bottom is from the pump.  You can see the fill valve on the right of the T, which then branches down to the bottom of the boiler and a branch to the drain pan for draining.  The branch to the left of the T goes to the tube assembly, I will show that in the next picture.    The large protrusion on the top of the boiler with a plug in it is the top end of the heat exchanger.

Mpotoka: photo-20.JPG
(Click for larger image)
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,675
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 2:00pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

I am still trying to figure this out but the part in you pic is indeed called the HX by N.S.
I was able to get a parts book through a round about means.

I am still not clear how they are working this, I need to look at it a bit more.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Mpotoka
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jun 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Chicago
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia deluxe & Nuova Mac...
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

Here is a picture of the installed heat exchanger tube assembly from the front.  The tube is up inside of the boiler, the right side of the T is the branch from the pump, and you can see the copper tube that goes up to the group head.

Mpotoka: photo-21.JPG
(Click for larger image)
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Mpotoka
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jun 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Chicago
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia deluxe & Nuova Mac...
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 2:09pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

Ok I pulled the tube assembly back apart and figured out how it works.  The T is just like a normal T, however the tube extends from the bottom end of the T up into the heat exchanger.  Water from the pump is forced around the tube into the heat exchanger, and the pressure pushes the hot water down out the tube.

Mpotoka: photo-22.JPG
(Click for larger image)
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Mpotoka
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jun 2012
Posts: 18
Location: Chicago
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia deluxe & Nuova Mac...
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 2:17pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

Bottom line is that the heat exchanger has a hole in it.  If I plug the line to the group head from this assembly, open the boiler drain, and blow from the pump supply line--I get air/water pushed out of the drain.  It also explains why when I disconnected the pipe on the right side of the fill valve and turned on the water, I started getting water out the back end.

So I'm pretty sure the boiler is shot unless it can be fixed by someone.

I think the next thing I will do is try to bypass/plug the heat exchanger so that I can test the pump, pressure stat, and the valve in the group head.  Obviously if I try to pull a shot it would just come out as cold water, but at least it should give me a reasonable evaluation of the other components before I consider the $625 boiler.

So my next question is am I better off watching for a used Oscar for $500ish--which is what I was originally thinking?  This machine really still needs a portafilter, pressure gauge, and boiler at a minimum--which means I'd be investing close to $1,000.

Thoughts?
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,675
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 2:19pm
Subject: Re: Restoring a Nuova Simonelli Mac 2000 S 1 Group
 

I can see how it is connected in your machine.
Like we hinted at above, if there are TWO water paths through the HX tube, then it is easy to see how this all works, if there is ONE water path then I really do not see how it can work. It looks, the way you have installed the tubes and the HX, the line to the brew group is attached to the fitting that looks straight through the assy and through the copper tube in your pic. If the water from the pump which attaches to the side of the fitting, is really diverted (up) and into the HX tube in the boiler, then the water flow would be up through the outside walls of the tube through the boiler and then down and out through the copper tube in the HX assy. That makes a perfectly logical flow path.

Anyway, as I said though, if the apx 1" tube through the boiler that is capped, leaks into the boiler (or the boiler leaks into the tube) it needs to be repaired. The boiler will need to be removed from the machine and a very small torch MIGHT be able to reach the crack in the main tube to silver solder or braze it shut. If a torch can reach it, you can fix it. Otherwise, the whole 1" tube will need to come out and be replaced or repaired. If you go through all the trouble to take it out, I would just replace it, though that might not be an option open to you.

As the machine is assembled, can you operate it anyway? The brew temp will be off as will be the pressure but you can see if all the other valves and electronics are working to help you decide how to move on from here.

I am leaving my main internet for the day so I might not get back to you until tomorrow.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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