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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 501
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:43pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

The hiss I can't really tell where it's from. There is steam coming through the group very slightly so that might be it.

Well i have the steam valve closed while i wait for it to get up to temperature. Do you have it slightly open while you wait as well?

I noticed that you take the actual portafilter temperature with a puck simulator with a thermister in it. What is the reading for 214 usually on the PID? I would like to know how to hit approximately 201 degrees as I rarely want to go over that so I could adjust downward from there.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,022
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Gaggia Classic PID Install and PID Controller Instructions
 

I warmup and start bleeding wet steam at about 260F.  I really do not watch much, but I know that it only takes about 15 seconds to be pretty hot.  It you sit with a closed boiler against full steam, you just encourage leak at the valve or through the group.  No real reason to do that.  I also leave the valve open and shut off the steam switch and let it cool with a wet towel on the wand.  Steams off the milk.

I use about 4 seconds of steam switch, then about 4 seconds rest/off then make the pull.  If a second quick pull within a minute of so, then no steam switch as there is still heat from the heat added with the pull.  As noted, that was developed in the thread.  It takes time to get heat from the element into the water, while cool water is coming directly in.  I can keep about 200F as the video.

If you try to set the PID higher and not use steam switch, then you next pull will be too hot if done quickly.

Try 3 seconds steam and off three and then hit brew, and then 4, or 4 on and 3 off.  That you settle by taste.  You should be at 199 - 200F that way.  200 is aabout right, if you want 201F, then perhaps 4 seconds steam and wait 5 seconds.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 501
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 10:35am
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

Just some general comments and the like after perusing the topic. I will start by explaining my setup.

General
1) I have an outlet timer for the morning so pre-heating is not an issue. In fact the machine comes on about 1 hour before I wake up. Would this be too long?

Steam
2) What you suggest I do is after turning on the steam switch to prepare for steaming is slightly opening the steam valve? When it hits 260F you bleed the water out. When it hits 285, you do your regular steaming routine? Then of course hit the brew and steam switch at the same time with the steam valve open to refill the boiler (and help clean off milk residue)?

Brew
3) In the morning I generally just pull one shot (weekends are different but we can get to that later). I am worried about just the initial shot at this point.

Idle PID temperature: 214F
Steam switch on: 4 seconds
Steam switch off wait: 5 seconds
Steam alarm set at 285L and 284H
Brew button on
Brew alarm set at 255L and 254H
Run time approximately 25-30 seconds (27 average)

You say that this gives you a brew temperature of about 201? Watching your one youtube video, it appeared that this was about the case.

Now, I have a bunch of High temperature epoxy putty and a unused single basket that I could put a polder thermometer tip in. However, I just want to verify your results. Especially, since you say you prefer the 195 brew temperature, while i'm up near 200.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,022
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 11:31am
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

Brian,  How was the machine and espresso this morning :)

Preheat from 20+ minutes.  An hour is longer than necessry, I like about 30 minutes, but it stretches to an hour if I am slow.

I slightly crack the steam valve at about 260F which is only several seconds of steam switch after a brew.  You added heat during the brew so the machine is actually above idle temperature.  I turn on the steam switch, remove the PF and empty it, and then look and I am about 260F.  Not critical whether 250 or 280, but I crack the valve and as the temperture comes up, I bleed wet steam into a container and then steam.  I turn the steam off and wrap a wet piece of paper towel around the open wand and tip and as the heat/steam bleeds off, it self cleans.  Wipe the wand and tip with the hot towel and it will be fairly clean.  The towel can be steam hot...

Leave the wand open but the steam switch off.  Turn on brew and fill the tank.  Water will go out the wand preferentially and it is the path of least resistance until the air is gone, then it comes out the group as well.  Close the valve then turn off the brew switch.  Tank filled.  I do not use the steam switch with brew switch, as I see no purpose.  If in a hurry because of another brew, I do not wait long to fill.  I wrap the wet towel on the wand and wait briefly and fill the tank, still off the steam switch but open wand. The problem for multiple shots if you stop to steam is that you have a hot boiler and have to wait for it to cool, so you can't rush it much.  You have to let the boiler cool from steaming and for me that is fastest with an open wand bleeding off steam and heat.  This is the normal SBDU problem, no way to cool effeciently after steaming, except with incoming water.

Settings seem correct, assuming good P,I,and D values with a little oscillation at heat up, not really oscillating at idle.

The thing not mentioned is that you now need to get a brew volume of about 50 ml liquid every time.  Well close anyway.  The brew alarm setting is allowing for about 50 ml incoming in about 25 seconds.  A larger volume may be a bit cool at the puck, and a smaller volume a bit warm.  Your taste will tell.

I did not go back and refilm as it tood a couple of tries, but that showed consistency.  I use Redbird and the recommend temperature is about 199 - 200F and that is where I am.  If bitter or sour, I do not change temperature directly.  I look at shot time and volume since those are the variables.  If that is consistent, then I still do not change settings.  I use the steam switch a second more or less at the beginning.  When I filmed, I left that off as I was just showing the ability to control intrashot.  I had started with about a second too long and got the heat up.  

Setting at 214F idle, about 4 seconds of steam switch and 4 seconds rest and the PID PV will be about 219f - 222F as I hit brew.  That is fairly repetitious.  Get used to seeing where you are on the PID PV when you hit brew, again this is FIRST pill.  If sour or bitter, look to move that temperature with a bit more or less switch or wait.

If I said I prefer 195F, it was probably a mistake.  198F or 199F perhaps.  I use 198F - 199F for Stumptown Hairbender, about 200F for Redbird.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 501
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 12:12pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

I use the same porcelain cup for most of my shots. The max is 2.1 oz but I am never close to filling it. So I suspect it's about 50ml.

So the 214F idle will be a closer approximation for the initial brew temperature. The blimp to ~220F before brew (via steam switch) and the brew alarm deal with the colder water that the boiler will take in?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,022
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 12:37pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

I got a couple of these to learn with.  Cheap and Partsshipfree

http://www.espressoparts.com/EPMEAS?&search_id=2023375

I get at least 3 oz volume in the glass at initial pull.  That will be mostly crema and will settle to about 50 ml.  If you can pull into a 2 oz cup I wonder what the volume actually is?  Use a measuring cup and figure actual fluid volume.  You could always weigh and be more precise, but not needed for what we are doing.  Just noting that I cannot get a 45 - 50 ml pull into less than 3 volume oz cup with the crema, and from what I have seen in threads that is fairly normal.  On the other hand, consistency is most important, so if you are happy with what you are doing, then figure the fluid volume.  You may have to set the brew alarm temperatures down a bit if the volume is say 35 - 40 ml.  If not bitter, you are ok.


brianl Said:

So the 214F idle will be a closer approximation for the initial brew temperature. The blimp to ~220F before brew (via steam switch) and the brew alarm deal with the colder water that the boiler will take in?

Posted March 6, 2013 link

Yes, the 214F idle and the use of the steam switch will put about 200F in the puck, that was the video.  That was early and I may have been 212 or 213F idle back then, refined a bit since with multiple uses of thermofilter.  PIDs have some level of error or variability from one to another, and you could need say 212 - 215F for idle.  Taste will tell.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 501
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 12:44pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

1.7oz = ~50ml

I have put the cup full of water, 2.1oz and dumped in a measuring cup to get like 62ml.

I don't understand how you say you can't get 45-50 ml pull into less than 3 oz cup? 3 oz is 89 ml.

I usually drink the espresso before the crema is done. Therefore, I don't know the volume without it. ;)

I can try to weigh it to be certain. 1gram =~ 1ml.

Maybe we are misinterpreting each other...
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,022
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 12:58pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

Volume and consistency is important to help set the heat with brew alarm temperatures.  The temperatures will determine time of brew heat indirectly.  Volume of cold water in is most like volume of espresso without crema.

I can't make a pull of 50 ml of liquid volume into a 2oz cup because the initial volume is about 3 oz of crema and would overflow the cup.  That may vary with what you use for coffee, but I get about 3 oz of crema with a little liquid in the bottom in 25 seconds with Redbird.  I am not necessarily suggesting that you have to drink a pull that you wait for the crema to dissipate, but you can do that to get a volume.  Consider that method of volume determination in setting your temperatures if you have sour or bitter.  Volume of water into the boiler is volume of espresso, crema dissipated.  Of course there is a bit in the puck and probably other minor losses.  I also see the bulk of the crema dissipate when I am steaming.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 501
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: HG One, OE Lido 2, Baratza...
Drip: Chemex/V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 1:12pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

I was always under the impression that the 2oz in 25 seconds was based on volume with crema. They also have the ML measurements, which also include crema.

Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

2.6oz with crema would be for a 18g double shot. You must be running yours into lungo territory.

Just want to make sure you agree with above. Then I can work on getting it into the 18g 2oz, which would be somewhere between a ristretto double and a regular double.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,022
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 1:34pm
Subject: Re: PID Controller Instructions and How To Install PID on Gaggia & Steam
 

I am not trying to get you to change your strength or extraction.  I only wanted to let you know that I get about 45 - 50 ml of espresso with mostly dissipated crema and that should be about the same weight in grams.  That is also about 3 volume oz, with crema, at the pull, but the wieght is essentially the same and that means about 45- -50 ml of water went into the boiler.  If you want to use less water, you will probably need to set the alarm temperatures down a bit or you may get too hot.  I brew about 45 - 50 ml and set the alarm temperatures accordingly.  If you figure your volume or weight or brew up or down, you can adjust the alarm temperature.

I hope that the chart is weight based or telling you to measure volume exactly at the switch off or some set point as crema dissipates.

Don't change your brewing to accomodate the PID setting, change the setting.  Mine is for frame or reference only.  You will taste bitter or sour if you are off by much.

I am actually trying to describe water into the boiler and can only approximate that by water output.  Water weight or volume out, not crema.  There are many threads about extraction and what label goes with pull volume.  Don't want to hijack my own thread into extractions and ratios :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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