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Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt...Please confirm this is wise!
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Discussions > Espresso > Espresso Mods > Going for the...  
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,241
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
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Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Thu May 3, 2007, 7:53pm
Subject: Re: Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt...Please confirm this is wis
 

JGG Said:

FWIW.

Posted May 3, 2007 link

And your FWIW is gold to me Jim, because you are THE MAN & consummate professional on this! {;-D

Cheers, & here's to excellent shots!

 
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earlds
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earlds
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Location: Mobile
Posted Thu May 3, 2007, 8:51pm
Subject: Re:  Sylvia
 

SILVIA  SILVIA SILVIA SILVIA,please wait while I go look at my espresso machine...well thats funny ,it doesnt say..No ,Im sure Im right.....SILVIA SILVIA SILVIA......thats all,carry on.......



Don.......................
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,241
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Thu May 3, 2007, 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Sylvia
 

earlds Said:

SILVIA  SILVIA SILVIA SILVIA,please wait while I go look at my espresso machine...well thats funny ,it doesnt say..No ,Im sure Im right.....SILVIA SILVIA SILVIA......thats all,carry on.......



Don.......................

Posted May 3, 2007 link

Yeah Don, I don't know how many times I've said that also.. ROTFLMAO!! {:-D

CraigA: rofl.gif

 
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inkstar
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inkstar
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: Atlanta
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: My Sweet Girl - Silvia
Grinder: KA Proline - modified
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Pour over, Apress
Roaster: rk drum, hot air
Posted Fri May 4, 2007, 1:43am
Subject: PIDing Silvia
 

Jim,
Agreed, I realize that my "kind of" wasn't clear on that point, glad you clarified. I agree tinkering w/ P can cause all kinds of headaches that a relay or just flipping the steam switch can avoid.  Have you ever tried any of these methods with Silvia?  Specifically ramp/soak or relay?
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JonS
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Joined: 19 Jan 2007
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Location: Chesterfield, UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Zaffiro w/PID
Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Isomac,...
Roaster: HotTop
Posted Fri May 4, 2007, 5:33am
Subject: Re: Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt...Please confirm this is wis
 

JGG Said:

Intrashot temperature profiles that I have recorded (for generic 2.5oz/25sec shots) almost always show a mildly rising temperature on Silvia's - without doing anything to override PID control.

Posted May 3, 2007 link

Jim, do you have a comparison with a non-PID silvia on this ?

I'm just curious as to whether this is simply the "PID" tickling the boiler during the shot, or whether the group is being slowly heated by the brew water, and is therefore having a progressively-diminishing cooling effect on the brew water passing through it during the shot ? Is this after pulling a "warming" flush before the shot ?

It seems to me that there's a balance point between the steadily-rising shot temperature potentially due to group heating, and the actual water temperature in the boiler at the end of the shot. If you apply much heat to the boiler whilst pulling the shot, you will minimise recovery time at the expense of poor shot stability because of this.

Perhaps that's an obvious assessment of the situation, but I'd not actually thought about it like that before.

Jon
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JGG
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JGG
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,377
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Roaster: Hottop D w/HTC+TC4C
Posted Fri May 4, 2007, 7:24am
Subject: Re: PIDing Silvia
 

inkstar Said:

Jim,
Agreed, I realize that my "kind of" wasn't clear on that point, glad you clarified. I agree tinkering w/ P can cause all kinds of headaches that a relay or just flipping the steam switch can avoid.  Have you ever tried any of these methods with Silvia?  Specifically ramp/soak or relay?

Posted May 4, 2007 link

Never tried either of those ideas (except I once experimented with a 30 minute ramp for cold startups - not good).  I'd have to give some more thought to the possible benefits of these, though.  The idea of forcing the heating element on as early as possible during a shot sounds like the right thing, but also seems contradictory to what I have observed with the shot temperature rising at the end.

In any event, I think intrashot temperature is already a Silvia strong point.  Controlling the intershot temperatures is, IMHO, the bigger challenge.

Jim
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JGG
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JGG
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,377
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Roaster: Hottop D w/HTC+TC4C
Posted Fri May 4, 2007, 8:53am
Subject: Re: Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt...Please confirm this is wis
 

JonS Said:

Jim, do you have a comparison with a non-PID silvia on this ?

I'm just curious as to whether this is simply the "PID" tickling the boiler during the shot, or whether the group is being slowly heated by the brew water, and is therefore having a progressively-diminishing cooling effect on the brew water passing through it during the shot ? Is this after pulling a "warming" flush before the shot ?

It seems to me that there's a balance point between the steadily-rising shot temperature potentially due to group heating, and the actual water temperature in the boiler at the end of the shot. If you apply much heat to the boiler whilst pulling the shot, you will minimise recovery time at the expense of poor shot stability because of this.

Posted May 4, 2007 link

Have never compared the temp profiles with a non-PID Silvia (does anybody actually have one of these? :-)  )

The lag time between application of power and observable boiler temp change is in the 25 second range on the Silvia.  So, my speculation is that the heater would be best able to affect the later stages of the shot.  When I am being careful, I try and pull shots when the group temperature is stable, either after a long idle period, or after the effects of any flushes have dampened out.  So a flush would probably not have much effect for my protocol.

Oddly, I find that the PID is better able to handle recovery when the boiler temperature drop is large, i.e., when the temperature has dipped down as much as possible.  Shots that are slow, or long duration shots, can give the PID some control challenges as it directs the recovery.  

In these cases, the heater element ends up with a bunch of heat stored that the PID doesn't "know" about.  The result frequently is higher overshoot, and slower recovery from a small temperature drop than from a large one.  So recovery time might actually be lengthened, in some cases, by "manually" applying heat during the shot.

Every PID algorithm seems to behave a little differently.  On your Cal controller, I have found that the shortest path to recovery is through allowing a large overshoot.  The Cal algorithm seems to be smart enough to know it has overshot the mark and allows things to cool off quickly.  IIRC, the most effective overall tuning on the Cal's pretty closely followed what ZN tuning gives you.

Jim
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cbowers
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cbowers
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Coquitlam, BC, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus III,...
Grinder: Baratza Various-W
Drip: Aeropress
Roaster: i-Roast 2 (w/ TC) +...
Posted Wed May 23, 2007, 10:48pm
Subject: Re: Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt
 

inkstar Said:

Doing it yourself is cheaper and you will be satisfied even with less than the best parts.  If money is no object, Jim's piece should be perfect, it's a quality piece and he takes pride in it.  I however, prefer RTD's over Thermo's.  Next step for you is to add a timer and pressure gauge. www.flickr.com/photos/inkstar

Posted April 27, 2007 link

So I'm *not* the only one whacky enough to PID a Starbucks Barista!
http://tinyurl.com/yrkf6t

I figured I may as well see how far I could go with it.  Since I was roasting my own beans, and extracting with as Naked a portafilter as that design allowed, I may as well dabble with a PID at an affordable price point, when dipping my toe in.

No going back.  A wonderful improvement to ease of use, and shot quality.

That said.  Why RTD?  I tried one (note the decimal place in the display).  But I found the response time too slow.  I could program around it but the warm up seemed glacial then, and very much prone to overshoot.

As soon as I switched to a TC, things were much easier.
So the obvious flaw with the Barista is the tiny boiler, and the temperature drop once you start pulling a shot (the silver lining being how quickly you can pull your first shot after the very quick warm up).  With the RTD I'd be done my shot before the PID started trying to catch up.  With the TC, it noticed immediately and starting calling for constant heat through the shot, minimizing the temperature loss, in fact I often gain much of it back by the time the shot is done.  At this point the RTD would also be slow sensing that it had long overshot the set point, whereas with the TC, by the time the shot is done, it only has to make up 5-10 degrees, and at most goes over by 1-2 deg before settling in.

I was most pleased with how easily the PID integrated into the Barista though.  Plug and play.  It could be Factory/Stock configured again in 5 minutes.  (The PID is held onto the side magnetically).
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frcn
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frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,394
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
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Posted Tue May 29, 2007, 8:49am
Subject: Re: Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt...Please confirm this is wis
 

Beavis Said:

I need confirmation that this is a good idea and much improves Sylvias performance.

Posted April 25, 2007 link

PID is a good idea. The temperature swing in Silvia's boiler  because of the button thermostat is ridiculously wide (as it is with virtually all home espresso machines with a single boiler).

Jim's kits are excellent. Sure, you can assemble the major parts on your own for a lot less, but his wiring is all pre-cut with terminals installed. Jim has spent a lot of time putting together his step-by-step instructions which make it an easy matter to install if you are comfortable with basic hand tools.

Read the review I have posted on my website for more details:
   http://www/EspressoMyEspresso.com

 
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www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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cappotim
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Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Beverly Hills
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Mar 24, 2008, 5:12am
Subject: Re: Going for the PID kit for Sylvia from Jim Gallt
 

inkstar Said:

Doing it yourself is cheaper and you will be satisfied even with less than the best parts.  If money is no object, Jim's piece should be perfect, it's a quality piece and he takes pride in it.  I however, prefer RTD's over Thermo's.  Next step for you is to add a timer and pressure gauge. www.flickr.com/photos/inkstar

Posted April 27, 2007 link

I saw your photos - awesome! Where did you get your timer & how did you wire it in to the Silvia ciruit? Does it start when you rock the brew switch, or do you have to start it separately? I am looking ofr a 2-digit countdown timer with audible alarm. I would like to have it start when I hit the brew switch, & then beep when at 25 seconds (at zero on the countdown) so that I would know the shot should be done or close to it.

I can't seem to find one on the web, & don't know enough about electronics to get the chips, etc.. to make one myself.
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