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Videos of the Cremina in action.
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SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Thu Jan 2, 2014, 7:28pm
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

IMAWriter Said:

BTW, the poster whom you so rudely addressed is a MUCH respected, longtime coffee Geek and now I believe Master Roaster.

Posted January 2, 2014 link

Sure thing, thanks for clearing that up for me... and Ed.

Ed - your post was a little vague and not clear to me... but I am sure if you took issue with my response, you would let me know yourself.... no?  BTW, thanks for all your help on the "other" Cremina thread, much appreciated!

Cheers.
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z0mbie
Senior Member
z0mbie
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 341
Location: Online
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Thu Jan 2, 2014, 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

you have the tamping station from HG One, how do you like that?

The HG One portafilter stand was kind of a mistake.. While it is beautifully designed and constructed, using it was a messy affair.  By design the height of the stand left lots of room for grinds to fly out as they exited the grinder.   Rather conveniently, my 2nd Cremina came with the OE dosing funnel that perfectly complemented the stand.   Used in conjunction, the mess is almost completely eliminated as it reduces the distance to just 5mm from dosing funnel to output funnel.    


SpaceTime Said:

- I like how you display the grind - no clumping, even, no RDT needed.... which I think you were trying to reaffirm also?

Posted January 2, 2014 link

Yeah my HG One has certainly gotten better and better with use.


I also like the OE Dosing funnel - did you like that one better than the taller / more expensive OE funnel that Craig was using?

The OE Dosing funnel that was included as part of my 2nd Cremina purchase was a blessing.  Otherwise my (rather expensive) HG One portafilter stand would have remained unused.

- That is the Penny bottomless, correct?  Did you buy the handle from OE also?

Yup, both purchased from OE.

- I noticed you raised the handle while putting the portafilter in to prevent puck doming... that is something I see as a common practice.

Early on I used to raise the lever after installing the portafilter but with the channeling issues going on with the grinder, I wanted to eliminate as many variables as possible.  So I got into the practice of raising the lever in advance. Logically it makes sense, so it's become part of my technique.  

- Other than that, I could not make out technique well - do you use the initial pump method until you feel resistance, then raise, then continue with consistent pressure?  Please share your method from pre-infusion stage onward... if you don't mind!  I am in learning phase, and sponging up all the technique I can!

Sure...

After filling the group chamber, I lower the lever until I feel resistance. With very light pressure I feel lever lower on its own as the puck takes in water.  At the first drop of espresso, I lift up and let more water into the group and repeat the step, letting a few more drops of espresso through--this 2nd pre-infusion step ensures the coffee puck is thoroughly saturated however sometimes it is not needed.  By looking at the coffee pattern the mirror, I can tell how evenly the coffee pattern is.  The more even the pattern, the more even the water flow.  A pattern where droplets of coffee appear all the same time out of every hole is perfection.  Such an event has been rare for me, but when it happens it does it's beautiful!  The thing I look for is a radially symmetric pattern, and leave perfection to moments of serendipity :)

After prefusion, I raise the lever all the fill the chamber and proceed with the final extraction.  The beauty of levers is how dynamic (and forgiving) they are.  One simply has to watch the flow amd adjust their pressure in real time.  I don't need pumps, manometers, precise tamper pressure, or constant fiddling of the grinder to get my shot right.  It's all finesse, baby! :)    Throughout the pull, I maintain steady pressure and try to keep an unbroken mouse tail and even extraction color.  I don't ever time my shots. The 25-30 second 'rule' applies to folks with machines (with preset bar pressure) to help determine if their grind is too tight or too loose (assuming they have exact tamp every time).   Many of my shots have gone well past 30 seconds with no measurable difference in quality.  

Other than that, thank you for sharing... to me this adds a lot of value.  I am sure some of the Cremina "veterans" are yawning LOL but Cremina rooks like me appreciate this very much.

I'm glad to be of help!
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SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Thu Jan 2, 2014, 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

Yeah my HG One has certainly gotten better and better with use.

Ah, I have read so much about the burr break-in period, and that is the only part of the HG one that is still a little of an unknown... how many lbs of coffee, how long?

And for the Penny portafilter - that is one definite purchase I am going to make with my new Cremina.  Did you purchase the Elektra double basket also?

After filling the group chamber, I lower the lever until I feel resistance. With very light pressure I feel lever lower on its own as the puck takes in water.  At the first drop of espresso, I lift up and let more water into the group and repeat the step, letting a few more drops of espresso through--this 2nd pre-infusion step ensures the coffee puck is thoroughly saturated however sometimes it is not needed.  By looking at the coffee pattern the mirror, I can tell how evenly the coffee pattern is.  The more even the pattern, the more even the water flow.  A pattern where droplets of coffee appear all the same time out of every hole is perfection.  Such an event has been rare for me, but when it happens it does it's beautiful!  The thing I look for is a radially symmetric pattern, and leave perfection to moments of serendipity :)

After prefusion, I raise the lever all the fill the chamber and proceed with the final extraction.  The beauty of levers is how dynamic (and forgiving) they are.  One simply has to watch the flow amd adjust their pressure in real time.  I don't need pumps, manometers, precise tamper pressure, or constant fiddling of the grinder to get my shot right.  It's all finesse, baby! :)    Throughout the pull, I maintain steady pressure and try to keep an unbroken mouse tail and even extraction color.  I don't ever time my shots. The 25-30 second 'rule' applies to folks with machines (with preset bar pressure) to help determine if their grind is too tight or too loose (assuming they have exact tamp every time).   Many of my shots have gone well past 30 seconds with no measurable difference in quality.  

Awesome - thanks for taking the time to detail this out.  I can use this as my first "best practice" to try when I am standing in front of my new Cremina saying "OK, now what?"  (reminds me of the end of Finding Nemo).

I was wondering about the purpose of the mirror in your video and some of the other videos I have seen - so that actually serves a purpose as part of the process, and not just there for the benefit of the viewer / camera to see the flow from the bottomless - makes sense now!!

For the rest of the process, I have a couple of questions needing more understanding, if you could be so kind...

Do you do any pre-flushing to bring your group up to temperature?  And when you do, do you leave the portafilter / basket in the group, or leave them out?  I have seen so many different approaches with the Cremina in this regard, it is borderline confusing which might / might not be the best approach!

"At the first drop of espresso, I lift up and let more water into the group and repeat the step"  ---How quickly do you raise the lever back up?  And are you raising the lever all the way back to the top of the stroke?

"After prefusion, I raise the lever all the fill the chamber and proceed with the final extraction."  ---  OK, this is where it gets a little confusing - are you raising the lever to the top of the stroke two or three times?  Twice - right?  (once to fill the group chamber, then once after seeing the first drop, correct?)  You just repeated this, and after the first paragraph I was not sure if this meant you lifted it AGAIN, or a third time!

Finally - are you dosing in the 15-16g range?  Have you ever weighed the final result in the cup?  I have heard some say you are trying to get 22-24g of espresso in the cup.. just curious.  How do you know you are done with a given extraction.

It is so interesting to see / hear the different processes, and Farmroasts (Ed's) point is suddenly ringing in my head - there is no script on how this is done and no right or wrong way.

I think back to one video I saw - I think Son Tom or someone with similar name in his pajamas with the sound of the clothes dryer in the background - where he pretty much raises the lever, and performs the entire double extraction in one stroke downwards... at least I think it is a double, that part of the video is not clear.  No lifting slightly to put the portafilter in, no re-raising, after pre infusion, etc.  

And now that I have read your reply and developed some questions, I am going back to view a couple of the videos again!  I should be able to tell more now from the flow and your reflection exactly what you are doing at each step....

Thanks again... this is helping me understand and play this out in my head as I prepare for pulling the first shot!  By the time I actually do it physically, it will almost be a non-event LOL performed as if I had already done it!

Finally, it would be awesome if some of the veterans here took the time to do the same and make a video - that would really be one for the archives and help attract new folks to the beauty of levers, and the Cremina... come on guys!
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z0mbie
Senior Member
z0mbie
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 341
Location: Online
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 4:04am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

how many lbs of coffee, how long?
After going through 5 lbs of coffee got rid of the channeling (along with improvements in my preparation).  Tip:  I went to a local coffee house and they gave me a 5lb bag of old coffee free of charge..  Come to think of it, I should have asked for 10.  They throw out stale coffee all the time.  Over the next 3 months, the grinder has just continued to improve.  

Did you purchase the Elektra double basket also?

I read that the Elektra basket doesn't actually fit (unless you finagle it in). So you'll have to file off about 1mm around the outer lip.  I kind of like things to just work, so I opted against it.  But who knows I might pick one up later.

Do you do any pre-flushing to bring your group up to temperature?  And when you do, do you leave the portafilter / basket in the group, or leave them out?  I have seen so many different approaches with the Cremina in this regard, it is borderline confusing which might / might not be the best approach!

I've seen videos of folks flushing the group, which I copied, but I no longer do that.  Now, I just let the machine warm up fully (after bleeding off false pressure).  It doesn't take too long for the group to warm up on it's own. I'm usually doing something else during that time anyway.

It's my opinion that pumping the lever not only increases wear on the piston seals, it flushes silicone grease from the group into your boiler. What you're left with is a lever that can bind during the extraction and an oily sheen on the surface of your boiler tank.  I'd rather keep the lubricant in the group and out of the boiler.

"At the first drop of espresso, I lift up and let more water into the group and repeat the step"  ---How quickly do you raise the lever back up?  And are you raising the lever all the way back to the top of the stroke?

I raise the lever all the way, slowly.

"After pre-infusion, I raise the lever all the fill the chamber and proceed with the final extraction."  ---  OK, this is where it gets a little confusing - are you raising the lever to the top of the stroke two or three times?  Twice - right?  (once to fill the group chamber, then once after seeing the first drop, correct?)  You just repeated this, and after the first paragraph I was not sure if this meant you lifted it AGAIN, or a third time!

lol. I raise it three times.  Once to fill the group and pre-infuse,  then once again for a second pre-infusion step, then once more for the final pull.  I learned later that when done in quick succession, this move is called the "Fellini".  I used to pre-infuse in one step but I found that the lever lowers too far down thereby creating unwanted negative pressure on the puck on the way up, so I turned it to a double-stroke pre-infusion.

Finally - are you dosing in the 15-16g range?  Have you ever weighed the final result in the cup?  I have heard some say you are trying to get 22-24g of espresso in the cup.. just curious.  

Of course. When starting I measured everything, but with experience I stopped measureing.  With levers you pull shots by sight so precision isn't that important. It's very forgiving in that regard.

Currently my shots are 17grams yielding about 1 oz of fluid .. This by definition, I believe that is a double ristretto.   If I were to do singles, I would dose 8 grams and stop at 1 oz. For a double, I'll dose 16grams and do a complete pull, which yields about 1.5oz.  The Cremina won't do shots greater than that, at least not in one pull.

How do you know you are done with a given extraction.

For straight shots, by sight (extraction color).   For lattes, when the lever stops :)  For straight shots, I shoot for color and texture. For lattes, I shoot for volume.

It is so interesting to see / hear the different processes, and Farmroasts (Ed's) point is suddenly ringing in my head - there is no script on how this is done and no right or wrong way.

I think back to one video I saw - I think Son Tom or someone with similar name in his pajamas with the sound of the clothes dryer in the background - where he pretty much raises the lever, and performs the entire double extraction in one stroke downwards... at least I think it is a double, that part of the video is not clear.  No lifting slightly to put the portafilter in, no re-raising, after pre infusion, etc.  

Yeah I've seen his videos.   The beauty of espresso is that it is so personal.  Everyone develops their own technique, so it's always nice to watch others pull shots.   It's great fun to find discovering new things to add to my repertoire :)

And now that I have read your reply and developed some questions, I am going back to view a couple of the videos again!  I should be able to tell more now from the flow and your reflection exactly what you are doing at each step....

Thanks again... this is helping me understand and play this out in my head as I prepare for pulling the first shot!  By the time I actually do it physically, it will almost be a non-event LOL performed as if I had already done it!

Finally, it would be awesome if some of the veterans here took the time to do the same and make a video - that would really be one for the archives and help attract new folks to the beauty of levers, and the Cremina... come on guys!

I look forward to seeing you post some videos once you're set up..
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z0mbie
Senior Member
z0mbie
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 341
Location: Online
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 4:40am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

Here's my favorite Cremina video on YT.  I love the music :)

Olympia Cremina '67
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uscfroadie
Senior Member
uscfroadie
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
Posts: 396
Location: San Antonio
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: GS/3 Strada MP, BDB; owned...
Grinder: Forte, Zass and PeDe hand...
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: Nope
Roaster: owned Behmor
Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 8:16am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

z0mbie Said:

I read that the Elektra basket doesn't actually fit (unless you finagle it in). So you'll have to file off about 1mm around the outer lip.  I kind of like things to just work, so I opted against it.  But who knows I might pick one up later.

Posted January 3, 2014 link

I have the Elektra basket and use/used it in both my Creminas without any issue at all, both in the standard portafilter and the Penney bottomless.

Space Time - Did you order a new Cremina yet?
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SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 8:17am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

z0mbie Said:

Here's my favorite Cremina video on YT.  I love the music :)

Olympia Cremina '67

Posted January 3, 2014 link

Yes, I remember seeing this a couple of weeks ago - it sounds like an Italian funeral!  Gotta love it... and how about that Londinium product placement there? Lol

Another "one stroker" - no re-raising the lever.  Is there ever an issue of not introducing enough water to the puck for a double with a single stroke?  It said he dosed 14g, so it was a double...

I loved the credits at the end "Some say these machines make the best espresso in the world.... others say they look a bit weird and are strictly for fanatics"

I will tell you that I was attracted to Cremina by it simplicity of design, solid build, relatively small footprint and what I think for my eyes are clean lines and a cool look.
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SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 8:22am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

uscfroadie Said:

I have the Elektra basket and use/used it in both my Creminas without any issue at all, both in the standard portafilter and the Penney bottomless.

Space Time - Did you order a new Cremina yet?

Posted January 3, 2014 link

Uscf - I found an 1989 "new old stock" one that is in unbelievable condition... see the Feelings About Cremina thread, which I hijacked LOL and used the nice folks here on the Lever board to help talk me into it.  I paid $1850, so I paid a premium, but it is literally a new Cremina that some tucked away for 24 years... I even had a chance to test it, and no issues.  EDIT - I will be paying $1850, the seller is on vacation for ten days, will be picking it up when he comes back - he told me it was mine on his return.

By the way - you misquoted above, that was Wee-bit-nutty who offered that, not me... I am the one trying to get edumicated.  (which he is taking care of quite well.)

By the way, it is becoming clearer to me by the minute that an HG One is in my future also!  But don't let me hijack this thread too...lol
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uscfroadie
Senior Member
uscfroadie
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
Posts: 396
Location: San Antonio
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: GS/3 Strada MP, BDB; owned...
Grinder: Forte, Zass and PeDe hand...
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: Nope
Roaster: owned Behmor
Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 8:34am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

SpaceTime Said:

By the way - you misquoted above, that was Wee-bit-nutty who offered that, not me... I am the one trying to get edumicated.  (which he is taking care of quite well.)

Posted January 3, 2014 link

Thanks for pointing that out.  I just clicked Quote, and CG's site did the rest.  For some reason it had two IDs for the quote source; now fixed.

Also, I was going to send you an email but you don't have one listed in your profile.
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SpaceTime
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Dec 2013
Posts: 271
Location: Virgo Cluster
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 83 & 89 Cremina, 85 Coffex
Grinder: HG One, Pharos, LIDO
Drip: Freiling 33 & 44oz FP,...
Posted Fri Jan 3, 2014, 8:46am
Subject: Re: Videos of the Cremina in action.
 

Email regarding....? ;-) Adding a mail account in the next hour...
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