Plado Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2004 Posts: 44 Location: United Kingdom county of Devon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Krups Espresseria Automatic... Grinder: German burr Emide. +... Vac Pot: No Drip: NO Roaster: no
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011, 6:32am Subject: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Bearing in mind that I only brew two cups of coffee per day, I'm very disappointed that my second La Pavoni Europiccola has now died.
The first machine had a black base which rusted through completely and the lever plunger was spewing out water while pumping hot water through the coffee. So I bought a new one with metal base but to my horror this base also started to rust out despite my having mopped it down after use and dried it using kitchen paper. Before it was out of warranty I painted the base with Hammerite silver paint to try to seal it. This worked but I started to get leakage at the cappuccino froth valve where the hexagon nut screws into the body.
Tightening this nut did nothing more than render the valve impossible to unscrew so I had to back it off half a turn so that the knob would turn. It's still leaking hot water and dripping onto the base.
So I went out and bought a Gaggia machine (made by Philips) it's proved superb, but I put the Pavoni away to use as a spare. I got it out today when I wanted to brew for Christmas guests and needed more than 4 cups. The Pavoni after being stored empty of water refuses to push water down through the basket filter, it just gushes steam and a dribble. This renders the machine un-usable.
It's out of warranty now and I'm disgusted with the dreadful engineering quality in the machine considering that I paid 350 uk pounds for it.
I have tried dismantling the coffee head and removing gasket and basket filter just to check no blockages or calcium build ups above it. All was perfectly clean. We live in a soft water area and our kettles don't get calcified.
I put it all back together and tried once more to brew and still it just throws steam down through the basket and no water.
Does anyone know if this is a common fault and whether I can get a spare part for it from Pavoni in the UK? Or maybe someone can advise as to what the best course of action is - I really don't trust the retailer where I bought it so I think it would have to be a recognized Pavoni agent who stocks spares. Also I don't want to have to post it anywhere otherwise I could end up with a bill for more than the machine is worth to replace.
I hope someone has some advice otherwise the thing will have to go to the local tip and I'll not even look at the Pavoni range next time. I'll return to my Atomic Robiatti Milan Mocha Pot machine that has worked for the last 45 years when they knew how to make a machine.
Plado Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2004 Posts: 44 Location: United Kingdom county of Devon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Krups Espresseria Automatic... Grinder: German burr Emide. +... Vac Pot: No Drip: NO Roaster: no
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011, 3:15pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Replying to my own post here. I get an email telling me that perica123 has responded to my posting thread but when I return and log in there is no posting only my own initial one. Have I set something wrong in these pages that replies to my post don't appear?
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011, 4:33pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Plado Said:
Replying to my own post here. I get an email telling me that perica123 has responded to my posting thread but when I return and log in there is no posting only my own initial one. Have I set something wrong in these pages that replies to my post don't appear?
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011, 4:48pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
It's weird that you're having so much trouble with the Pavoni. I thought Pavoni had a pretty good build quality that holds true for pre-millenium and post-millenium Pavonis.
Anyhow, Pavoni levers are simple machines and the problem could be easily diagnosed I believe. Was there a O-ring seal between the hex nut and the body? If so maybe it needs to be replaced.
As for the group not giving water, how far have you looked into the group? I believe there should be something(maybe coffee grinds?) in the water path that prevents the pressurized-water going from the boiler into the grouphead. Check the feeding tube as well as the hole inside the group cylinder(after taking off the dispersion screen, there should be two holes in the inner cylinder wall).
If you still couldn't fix it, try posting a video and I believe there will be more other experts here that could offer their help. I have not had first hand experience with Pavoni but had a Cremina with very similar working mechanism. So take my advice with a grain of salt.
Asides from the machine's problem, did you leave the Pavoni on for a long period? These machines aren't designed to be on whole day long and that could cause them(and the seals) to have shortened lifespan. Not trying to be critical but I think it's best to solve the core issue(if there is any) rather than fixing just the surface problem(which hopefully is easy fix). Also, before turning them on, it's best to have at least 1/2 tank of water in the machine.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011, 8:30pm Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
I hope I can help you...here goes:
Water Leaks
Plado Said:
The first machine had a black base which rusted through completely and the lever plunger was spewing out water while pumping hot water through the coffee.
In both instances, where exactly was this water coming from? Was it leaking out of the top of the group head where the piston rod moves in and out? Was it leaking out around the portafilter from inside the bottom of the group head?
Steam Leak Try removing the entire steam release knob+nut+pin+seals assembly and see what it looks like.
Rusted Base Where exactly did the bases develop rust? Have you ever taken a look at the underside of the bases? You should do so and see if there is rust concentrated in a particular area...this can often help find a leak.
i have repaired a lot of La Pavonis from a lot of different years...some of the problems you are having sound like those of a poorly repaired older machine...not ones that show up on a new one. Other than the rust, most problems are caused by damaged seals and if you can take the machine apart you can usually fix/replace them very easily. I'm sorry you are having so many problems, it sounds quite frustrating. There are a lot of knowledgable people here...so we should be able to help you out.
Plado Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2004 Posts: 44 Location: United Kingdom county of Devon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Krups Espresseria Automatic... Grinder: German burr Emide. +... Vac Pot: No Drip: NO Roaster: no
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011, 2:11am Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Russel thank you for this comprehensive reply - also thanks to Samuellaw178 for his ideas and to CraigA for advising me of the spam that got removed. That explains a lot.
OK let's try to respond to what you've said. On the old machine that got thrown away I tried dismantling the "head" system (sorry I don't know all the terms relating to all the bits) when I unscrewed on the old machine the plunger having taken all 4 circlips off the lever-arm and removed it, I couldn't get down to any more than a movable plunger that pushed a piston mechanism inside the head. I couldn't strip it down any further than that, it seemed to me to be sealed.
Well on this newer machine I unscrewed the two chromed hexagon nuts (horizonatal) that bolt the coffee head to the machine and pulled it out. The o-ring gasket was still intact and sealing well at the main joint. Inside where the water comes through from piston to coffee-head was a black hard-plastic collet or gland with a hole in it, and around the hole are four small drilled holes that appear to be blanked so they look like grippers for a factory tool to undo or tighten it up. I gently unscrewed this collet with wide jawed pliers and then by hand. The centre hole was partially covered in what appeared to be twisted fragments of the plastic which I pulled off with my fingers.
Yes the machine did once get hot when it was let boil down and it fused so I tipped out remaining water and refilled only to find it needed the Trip-switch reset button in the base pressing once to get it going again. It then managed to brew a few more coffees but at that point I bought the new Gaggia Baby Twin because I saw a special offer on one. I put the Pavoni away (dry) and got it out again 3 weeks later and found this new fault of steam emitting from the group instead of hot water.
The original rust began on the old machine in the base below the plastic drip tray cup-stand. I had left it for a day without mopping it up from hot water spillage. The steam pipe sometimes would throw hot water into the tray and sometimes this landed beneath it. The first clue was blistering of the black paint of the base of the machine under where the tray sits in the edges of the concave recess that holds the tray. Then the paint split and there were pin-prick holes going through to the underside.
I did take the bottom panel off once I could work out that the bolt was a star headed torx-like head needing a special hollow torx spanner which I had to buy (thank you Pavoni for not using a proper cross head or Allen-headed bolt!). No sign of any seepage or leakage underneath. But that's no longer part of my problem so I won't sidetrack myself too much here. Back to this problem.
Yesterday I did manage to prise out the gasket around the trough holding the filter head in place and removed the filter to see if it was blocked by dried coffee but it wasn't. I held it up to the light and all the hundreds of holes were clear and it was all clean behind it in the machine. Just a round clean diaphragm behind it and no way of stripping it down further.
I have no idea how to get at the feeding tube as I don't even know where it is - inside the machine somewhere. It seems to just push a dribble of hot water and a lot of steam through the filter head and not the usual stream. I always used to "sparge" the head after use by removing the coffee basket and putting a cup under the delivery shower area and pulling a single shot which just streamed lots of hot water through the filter to clean it. Then I switched off and released steam pressure through the frother wand and let it cool down. This was a ritual with me and I used to loosen the big black filler knob on the top so as to prevent the gasket getting dried and compressed.
So I don't know where to move next on this. I'll be guided by you - but I think I could use a diagram to understand the names of all the separate bits before I start fiddling further. Thanks again for you valued help -- Plado
Plado Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2004 Posts: 44 Location: United Kingdom county of Devon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Krups Espresseria Automatic... Grinder: German burr Emide. +... Vac Pot: No Drip: NO Roaster: no
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011, 6:39am Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Must post another reply to this. I've just dismantled the machine as far as I can.
Photo attached will show the bits that I hope is relevant to what we're talking about here.
The valve for the steam pip frother was a bit oily but having screwed it back in, it appears to no longer leak or drip when shut.
The rest of the photo you'll see that everything looks in order, though I never found any "pipe" or delivery pipe to check out.
It seems attaching files bigger than 75k is not possible so I'll attach a compilation photo of 50k+ and if you need to see the video of how the steam comes out with half hearted dribbles instead of a proper shower of hot water, please view the video on my webpage at this url. It's a wmv file
That should stream to you as a video if not as proper hot water !!
I'll be interested to know your views on what I've shown.
Certainly when I fired it up after putting it all back together with half a tank of water in it, the green light went out when it was up to pressure and I just placed a bowl under the coffee head to see if a good shower of hot water came out. It didn't, just dribbles and steam from the filter screen and from nowhere else. Interesting! Hmmmm?
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011, 8:12am Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Great! at least the leaking issue was solved *mysteriously*. Maybe there was something(limescale probably but you said your water is soft water) in the valve blocking the proper seating of the o-ring that prevents complete sealing.
Something is very wrong if you say there is no pipe or tube when the group head(the one with the piston) was taken off. I don't see it in the photo either. If there's no feeding tube, the water won't make it into the group head, which makes perfect sense that only steam will come off. Are you certain about that?
This is how the feeding tube should look like.
There two are video links for taking down and putting the Pavoni(pre-millennium) back. Should be very close to your machine. Disassembly Reassembling Pavoni
Plado Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2004 Posts: 44 Location: United Kingdom county of Devon Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Krups Espresseria Automatic... Grinder: German burr Emide. +... Vac Pot: No Drip: NO Roaster: no
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011, 8:44am Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Ah you've hit the nail right on the head fair and square - there is no tube. As I pulled the chrome coffee head off the tank, after removing the two horizontal hexagon bolts, the black "ferrule" I suppose you'd call it that, was all that was screwed to the back of the head, no pipe.
Does this mean it's fallen down inside. I'll just go and check as I'm writing this to see if it has, but there's nothing flopping about inside when I turn it upside down empty. Yes you're right, the pipe is stuck down at the bottom of the tank - it must have got trapped somewhere. So I hooked it out with my fingers and as it's too wide an elbow to pull it out of the top, I took the coffee head off again and drew it out through the exit port of the machine.
Look at this photo you'll see that the threaded black plastic gland has got its core thread partially melted and there's plastic debris stuck in the thread on the end of the copper pipe.
I don't think I'll try to screw it back in until I hear from you what might be the best way forward ie A new pipe and threaded gland, or whether there's a way I could re seal it with some kind of boiling water-proof compound.
Obviously if there's a good source of spares in the UK where I could buy that component new, then it would be the cheaper and more long lived solution to the problem. Samuellaw178 you're a genius - to diagnose that from photos and a description here is truly amazing.
I await your suggestions and thanks a million. -- Plado
Posted Wed Dec 28, 2011, 8:47am Subject: Re: La Pavoni - 2 machines died in 3 years. Not a good record.
Here is a link to Stefano's site. He's in the US...so you might not be able to order parts from him, but his site has both diagrams and photos of the corresponding parts.
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