convert Senior Member Joined: 21 Dec 2011 Posts: 2 Location: Hampshire, UK Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola chrome
Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011, 4:55am Subject: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
Sorry for the painfully obvious question, may have been asked before but I can't find it. Maybe not have asked before as it's too obvious!
I picked up a Europiccola millenium used but as new yesterday. Really pleased with the way it looks and feels and excited about getting to learn how to use it. First few attempts have been mixed as expected but I'm up for a challenge!
The question - I've read around and most folk seem to say just to jetison the smaller single basket and they only use the larger "double" basket. Seems reasonable. But, as far as I understand it (this is maybe where I'm going wrong) you use a single complete lever action irrispective of the basket in the group- no more, no less. Does the lever going to the top not draw the amount of water to be used up and therefore determine the size of the shot? If so are you expected to get a strong shot with the larger basket and a comparitively weak one with the small smaller rather than shots of the same strength but of differing sizes as you might expect? That does not seem to make sense.
I've no intention of using the smaller basket but get the impression this is the sort of machine you really should fully understand to get the best out of it.
Thanks for your help and I'll probably be along again with some slightly more intelligent questions!
jtrops Senior Member Joined: 25 Dec 2008 Posts: 118 Location: Colorado, USA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Factory Grinder: Zass Turkish/Kitchenaid pro... Drip: Vietnamese pour over Roaster: Heat Gun/DB
Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011, 10:43am Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
It seems like you understand the basics pretty well. The only thing I could add would be that if you pull the lever up, and start extracting the coffee without filling the group head completely you would get a smaller volume. On my Gaggia Factory, pretty much the same as your machine, I find that I need to lift the lever a few times to get the group head full. I'm not talking about lifting it after I've started extracting, but during the pre-infusion phase.
fac10 Senior Member Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 52 Location: MA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Factory lever Grinder: Macap M4, Baratza Maestro...
Posted Wed Dec 21, 2011, 10:55am Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
Yes, the amount of water in a single pull has nothing to do with the basket, so all other things being equal, a single and a double shot would have the same amount of water and differ only in strength.
I think it's pretty common for people to try to get a bit more water through when using the double basket. A full second pull is not advised as it tends to suck the puck back up out of the basket. A better approach is to use one or more partial pulls where you push the lever down part way and then bring it back up to the top, and then do a single full pull to finish. My own technique is to start with several (3 or 4) small (1/4 or so of the lever travel) partial pulls. This technique also seems to help purge air from the chamber so more water can get in (you can tell you have air in the chamber when you don't feel resistance starting right at the top of the pull). I suggest you experiment and see what works best for you.
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,462 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:25pm Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
convert Said:
Sorry for the painfully obvious question, may have been asked before but I can't find it. Maybe not have asked before as it's too obvious!
I picked up a Europiccola millenium used but as new yesterday. Really pleased with the way it looks and feels and excited about getting to learn how to use it. First few attempts have been mixed as expected but I'm up for a challenge!
The question - I've read around and most folk seem to say just to jetison the smaller single basket and they only use the larger "double" basket. Seems reasonable. But, as far as I understand it (this is maybe where I'm going wrong) you use a single complete lever action irrispective of the basket in the group- no more, no less. Does the lever going to the top not draw the amount of water to be used up and therefore determine the size of the shot? If so are you expected to get a strong shot with the larger basket and a comparitively weak one with the small smaller rather than shots of the same strength but of differing sizes as you might expect? That does not seem to make sense.
I've no intention of using the smaller basket but get the impression this is the sort of machine you really should fully understand to get the best out of it.
Thanks for your help and I'll probably be along again with some slightly more intelligent questions!
First off, WELCOME to CG, and the fantastic lever-head world! ;>D Your question is NOT in any way irrelevant or "dumb", and as was mentioned, you have a good idea of what's what.
That said, I'd answer the shot volume/dose amount/single or double question thusly... (I'm just one opinion!) Yes, a single upstroke will produce the same amount of water, but a double shot...say 15 grams, in a double basket will produce a thicker, more energized shot. With a single basket, say 10-11 grams, you might pull the cup BEFORE the shot completes, to get the traditional Italian single, about a little less than 20ml..not sure of metric, but .75 oz or so. Singles tend to be a bit subtle, sometimes sweeter.
Some folks like to create a double restretto, which would be 15 grams ground just a touch finer than the normal double shot, one upward pull (being careful to go slowly, as to not disturb the puck), hold up top for 6 counts, then lower the lever, first with solid downward pressure, then progressively less, pulling the cup before reaching bottom. The object is to get a thick, gooey shot, with less liquid than your normal double, in maybe 25-30 seconds.
Remember, before pulling a shot on your machine (I owned one a few years ago) you must first "bleed" the steam wand when the boiler light first goes out, to relieve "false pressure' and allow the machine to reach true proper boiler temperature. many of us, on all pulls, like to hold the lever up top for a few counts, as this worlds to "pre-infuse" the puck, which helps avoid channeling.
Lastly, the La Pavoni group will be too hot after 2, or at most 3 shots, and to continue, you should dip your PF in ice water till it's cold, and insert in the group. This works as a heat sink, and after 2 minutes or so, you're ready to rock once more!!!
Hope this helps.
EDIT...do you possess a proper 51mm tamper? IMO, this is a MUST with a lever, and in particular the La Pavoni. Stainless or aluminum.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:15pm Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
IMA just about nailed it so I can't really add much except to say don't over think the process.
Like most home levers the Pavonis are simple machines and so is the process of getting the best out of them. My tip is to put the single basket in the drawer, use zero tamp pressure and just work on the grind and your lever technique.
Above all, relax, use an easy hand and you will be rewarded.
convert Senior Member Joined: 21 Dec 2011 Posts: 2 Location: Hampshire, UK Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola chrome
Posted Thu Dec 29, 2011, 2:46am Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
Thanks all for some really informative and friendly replies - so helpful!
I have had a good chance to play with it over Christmas now and have to say I'm getting a little addicted! As said above, I think you can over think it, it's just a matter of understanding the fundamentals of how it works and the desired outcome and then getting on with it. I have had a few shots now that I would consider half descent - I'm amazed how sweet tasting they are in comparison to what I'm used to being served or making at home in lower quality kit previously. I am currently stuck with just a little Porlex hand Grinder- we have a tiny kitchen and divorce papers were nearly served on the emergence of the pavoni, any tips on how I can smuggle in an electric grinder (wife does not like coffee or get the fascination!)? I might have to resort to going out to the shed to grind! In the meantime the porlex is keeping me fit!
Volume - I have started drinking nice strong sweet and thick short shots "neat" with a single lever up, pause for 6 then press; but using a "plunge and half" (stopping half way down then returning to the top) when making milk orientated drinks. Both with the larger basket and 15-16g of coffee.
Regarding the heat - there seems to be a critical middle ground. If I pull a shot as soon as the water is up to temperature the group seems to be too cool and the shot is lukewarm but as said above after about 3 shots it gets too warm. My routine has evolved to either pulling the lever up and letting some water through prior to putting in the pf for the first shot to warm it up a little or "playing" the lever a little as I draw it up at about the half way stage when you can feel the water being drawn in before bringing the lever to the top. Both seem to work but the second wastes less water.
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,462 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Sat Dec 31, 2011, 5:22pm Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
donnydregs Said:
IMA just about nailed it so I can't really add much except to say don't over think the process.
Like most home levers the Pavonis are simple machines and so is the process of getting the best out of them. My tip is to put the single basket in the drawer, use zero tamp pressure and just work on the grind and your lever technique.
Above all, relax, use an easy hand and you will be rewarded.
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,462 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Sat Dec 31, 2011, 5:24pm Subject: Re: Very daft initial Pavoni question re shot size.
Ben, I have a Porlex, and several wooden manual grinders. and can testify, that if you don't mind the 150 turns (lol) it does a fine job with espresso grind. Yes, a REAL workout.
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