espressolover2 Senior Member Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 41 Location: Florida Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Miss Silvia, Olympia Cremina Grinder: Rocky with doser
Posted Thu May 1, 2008, 6:31pm Subject: Cremina 67 issues
Hey everyone,
I have a couple of questions I would like to ask and I hope someone can shed some light on them for me. Ok. So as you all know, I just got my Cremina a few weeks ago and it was in mint condition. Beautiful! so the only thing I figured I would do to it was give it a good cleaning. And with the help and advise from you all:-) I was able to do it right! I used the (Dezcal Professional Espresso Machine Descaler) from Orphan Espresso. I used it as directed and ran a full 3 tanks of clean water through after. Now, since then, I have been seeing small,med & large size flakes of shiny metal in the basket after a shot. and when I pull a blank without the portafilter on, to clean it after, there is a ton of them! At first I assumed this was metal flaking from the backside of the screen. But my Wife suggested that it might be inside the boiler itself because it did not start until after the cleaning. (Smart girl:-) so I decided to take a pen light and take a peak inside. Sure enough, there they were! floating around in the boiler. So took my group cleaning brush and put it down in there and gently rubbed around on the inside and on the copper (or copper color) tube that runs from the water into the group head, and when I took it out and examined the brissels, they had the flakes on them. As well as in the boiler water. So now that i know where they are coming from, can someone tell me what the heck they might be coming from? and a possible solution? I was thinking of getting a few bottle brushes and simple going to town in there and then just flushing it until I get clear water. What I am trying to avoid it taking anything apart if possible. Because I know once I crack those seals, thats it. I will have ot replace them for sure. And I would rather not if I don't have to! So any thoughs would be great! Thanks!
Now for # 2. and this one might be a simple one. I hope! I have noticed that sometimes when I cut the machine on after I fill the boiler, it seems to run for a longer than normal heating cycle. and it seems louder than normal as well. But if I lift the lever slightly, the boiler cuts off and seems to function normally after that. It seems like the heating element is getting stuck on somehow unil it is tripped off byt the lever. Is this even possible? I am not sure. I am using room temp water as well. So it is not an issue with cold water taking longer to heat up. Perhaps simple filling the boiler to the op of the glass line requires more time on the cycle to heat it all. That makes sense yes, but that does not explain how i am able to trip it off with the lever. So again, any thoughts here would be great! I look forward to hearing from you all.
Thanks!
Eric.
BTW,
2 final unrelated things here to say. I did not want to start another thread for this stuff since they are short.
#1 I said I would post back a review on the tamper I purchased from the new tamper man on e-bay. But I have since decided that this is not the best idea. People will like what they like regardless of what I say and I do not want to swayt anyone one way or another. So I will say this about the tamper and leave it at that. It came very well packed. It it very ergo and feels nice in my hand. It has a good weight. The fit in my Cremina basket it perfect. Not loose or tight at all. The wood work is very well done and looks great. So thats my opinion:-) And as for my Thor tampers that I got. Both the regular and ridgeline, well. I don't think I can say anything here. A Thor Tamper is a Thor Tamper and there is no way to compair them to any other handmade tamper. in my opinion.
#2 If anyone has been following the Olympia Grinder auction on E-Bay, I suggest you bid $325;-) if you want it. I have passed on it for my own reasons but have talked to the seller several times. But you better hurry!!! good luck!!!
Hi Eric, are the flakey bits floating? If so, they aren't metal - probably scale (which can look like flakes of metal). When you look into the boiler, what color are the sides? Orangish, yellowish, white-ish? Using a bottle brush, and scrubbing inside, and flushing it out won't hurt it, and sounds like the best approach to protect the boiler seal.
As for the cycling time, and the lever, it sounds like when you are lifting the lever you may be increasing the pressure slightly in the boiler and tripping the pressure stat. There's long been a discussion of 'false pressure'. Does it behave the same way if you turn the machine on with the steam wand open (and a vessel to catch the water/steam from it!)? Does it behave the same way if you open/close the steam valve (Instead of moving the lever)? Does it happen every time?
The control for turning the element on/off is the pressurestat (the movement of the lever is not directly affecting the element - it would be affecting the pressurestat).
Ok. So the flakes are both floating and on the bottom. Some float and some sink. When I look into the boiler, the color is a orangish brown as best I can tell. I see no white scale or solid yellows. So I am not sure if it is in fact scale or metal. I will try the bottle brush tonight and see what happens. ( I pray it is just scale from the good cleaning:-)
Now as for the other issue. Yes. I can trip it off by cracking the steam valve a bit instead of lifting the lever. Either one will cause it to stop cycling. And it is not everytime. It seems to happen most offen after a fill up. I have not tried turning on the machine with the steam wand open. Should I? I usally wait until the 1st cycle is done and then bleed off the false pressure. And of course once I do this, the boiler kicks back on and I have to bleed it again. But after this second flase pressure release, it does not kick back on. So how about this idea, what if I open the steam wand and turn it on to bleed off the pressure already in there and then see how it reacts to the initial cycle? let me know what you think!
If it floats, it's not metal, for sure, and that's a good thing! If it were metal, it would be brass, and it would ALL sink (and brass doesn't generally look like flakes). I'd say it's just scale... When the boiler heats it expands a little bit, and some of the scale pops off the sides - cleaning it out with a brush and flush will help immensely!
If the behavior of the machine is variable, then it could be that a bit of that scale has gotten into the tube that feeds the pressure stat - the pressure stat is a 'dead end' - meaning that the tube goes to the pstat, but no further. If a bit of debris has gotten in the tube there's no easy way for it to 'flow' back out of the tube. Moving the lever, or letting off steam might allow that 'bit' to move slightly, changing the reading that the pstat gets, therefore allowing it to shut off.
If the weird behavior continues you might want to clean out the tube & the pressurestat. The pressurestat is held by a nut at the top, there are 2 wires (1 red, and 1 blue) that attach - it is very visible when you remove the housing (take off the boiler cap, unscrew the nut at the top of the boiler, remove the top of the case, then remove the cover - you'll be able to see the pstat at that point, and you'll be able to observe how debris can interfere with the function). Don't worry about the copper washer on the pstat - you can reuse them, and we do have the right washers for replacements if you need them - we don't have them listed on our site yet (larking about at the SCAA convention instead of home, working!)
It's been a good day - picked up 3 vac pots & a grinder at a junk store in Fargo today!
espressolover2 Senior Member Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 41 Location: Florida Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Miss Silvia, Olympia Cremina Grinder: Rocky with doser
Posted Sat May 3, 2008, 6:45am Subject: Re: Cremina 67 issues
Ok. So lastnight I was able to pick up a clip spreader at the hardware store so I am good there if I need it. However, i was not able to find any bottle brushes or a substitute. So I had to order them online from TX. they are actually test tube cleaning brushes. But I think I might try to use something else to get down in there until the brushes arive. It seems that the more I prepare for this step by step, the more confident I am in taking it apart:-) I mean, what does it matter if I have to wait a week or so for parts if I am not able to use it anyway! correct? So we will see. the adventure continues....
Posted Sun May 4, 2008, 6:20pm Subject: Re: Cremina 67 issues
espressolover2 Said:
Ok. So the flakes are both floating and on the bottom. Some float and some sink. When I look into the boiler, the color is a orangish brown as best I can tell. I see no white scale or solid yellows. So I am not sure if it is in fact scale or metal. I will try the bottle brush tonight and see what happens. ( I pray it is just scale from the good cleaning:-)
Now as for the other issue. Yes. I can trip it off by cracking the steam valve a bit instead of lifting the lever. Either one will cause it to stop cycling. And it is not everytime. It seems to happen most offen after a fill up. I have not tried turning on the machine with the steam wand open. Should I? I usally wait until the 1st cycle is done and then bleed off the false pressure. And of course once I do this, the boiler kicks back on and I have to bleed it again. But after this second flase pressure release, it does not kick back on. So how about this idea, what if I open the steam wand and turn it on to bleed off the pressure already in there and then see how it reacts to the initial cycle? let me know what you think!
I preface this comment by stating I'm a new Cremina owner as well...I previously pulled some shots on a La Pavoni. Both machines require a quick opening of the steam valve to relieve "false pressure." The machine will then continue to heat up till it reaches a proper temperature. A few water flushes to heat the PF and basket, and you should be ready to rock. I've found my 2nd shots are always a bit sweeter, as I believe the temperature is more stable. I had flakes as well after I "Dezcal-ed" my machine. When doing your rinses 9I also did three), did you completely empty your boiler by tipping the machine over into the sink? BTW, my "flakes" were brown. They're gone now, but have been replaced by a sickly sweet rosewater sort of smell. Like old biddy perfume....haha. I removed the steam wand to check for milk deposits....none I could see or smell. Do you get that smell out of your steam wand? Keep us posted! I love my Cremina. Hope you feel the same. I'm getting forearms like Popeye.
Hey IMA, congrads on your new Cremina as well! aint she sweet:-) So let me give you the low down on the flakes here because nobody seemed to know this. So I spoke with Greg Moore from Re-Spresso.com via e-mail and here is what he had to say.
(Long story short- you have now problems to pay for remedying - When you descaled- the original nickel plating in the boiler let go of inside of the boiler. Brass boilers are fine to use- in fact most of this plating gradually wears away in our machines( mine included) Yours decided to "de-laminate" on a faster pace. Not all of it but a portion.
I would unplug it and when cool, invert it and dump all of the water and loose "flotsam out" -this may take a couple of times as the loosen pieces completely let go.
Also you may need to remove the diffusion screen from the bottom of the group-head. There will be some trapped particles here as well.
The inside of the brass boiler will develop a patina over the exposed places and life will go on!! There has been varying discussions on the forums about brass and copper and water. Bottom line for me is that USDA and most of the world drinks water that runs through copper pipe, brass plumbing fittings in regular water supply and hot water heaters.
I do not lose sleep over it. That is my take- you may need to address this differently due to you circumstances- if so - have at it. Many get freaked out about the asbestos on old boilers. It is an individual deal for each of us.
And that is exactly what the problem was. I was up until 5:30 AM working on the machine this past Sat. I pulled out the piston and took apart the boiler all for a full cleaning! and after many hours of scrubing with some super fine wet sandpaper, It was all looking like new brass again! also, once the piston was cleaned and re lubed with the Dow 111, it was amazingly smoother. Big difference. And finally, that "old lady / used bookstore) smell from the steam wand was gone!!!! I am happy about that but in some weird way, I also now kinda miss it:-) lol! it was like smelling "vintage" but given the choice, I am sure my Wife would rather not drink vintage lattes... Anyway, my fingertips look and feel like hamburger from the whole process and I took alot of pics that I will post up tonight so you can see what you are up aginst in case you have to do this in the future. I am lucky in the fact that all my seals and gaskets are still in great shape and were able to hold up for all this! But I am ordering all new gaskets and seals to replace them anyway. Better to be safe than sorry!
Good Stuff! Greg is a terrific source. He helped me with an issue as well. MY problem is, the previous owner torqued the nut under the boiler cap too much...it may even be cross threaded. The back end of the nut has a 2-3mm space between it and the top of the Cremina, while the front side of the nut lies flush with the Cremina top. I'm afraid to take a crescent wrench to it. I have no flakes, but I do have that "rosewater" old biddy smell...haha It was there previous to the Dezcal bath. hey, everyone said "de-scale before you pull a shot for human consumption." Uh, OK...lolol I'm betting I've got a but of your problem. yet, I don't have any residue. I empty the residual water from my boiler at the end of the day by inverting and dumping in the sink. I seen not a flake. The mystery gets deeper. Glad you're back on form! RJ
Thanks for asking! all is going well with the machine. All the tech issues are clear and it is running perfectly. I am still pulling awsome shots for my Wifes lattes everyday, But I am still not getting the espresso I am after. So I took the plunge over the weekend and ordered a Gene Cafe home roaster and 10 pounds of different green beans! So I am hoping that this will get me what I am after! I read a post not long ago regarding something or another, but the person said sonething that REALLY stuck with me! " You don't buy your bread toasted" and I pondered it for sometime before I decided to go into this aspect of it all. So I am now awaiting my roaster and beans so that I can begin! I am trying to get that perfect combo of sweet and earthy in my espresso. I am hoping that 10 pounds of beans will be able to get me there! I will be mixing, roasting and tasting all this weekend if all go's well:-) any suggestions on bean mixes? How is all going on your end?
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