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Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,219
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:28am
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

BREVILLE SMART FOR PRESS

Jason (goldenscoffee),

As you undoubtedly realize the Smart allows some "click" grind size adjustment between the hash  marks on the screen, as well as some dose adjustment between the number of cups, by adjusting for stronger and weaker.

You can tune that sucker very finely for each of your different brewers.  Smart (cough) people who use a lot of different brewers keep notes, I suppose.  All I know is I use a lot of different brewers.    

The back story is that using a drip-fine grind for FP is a way of working around a grinder which doesn't do coarse without a lot of fines.  Now that you've got a grinder which does consistently sized coarse grinds (it will be even more consistent after break-in), you might want to try grinding coarser for French.  You'll get a cleaner cup.  Not only clearer looking with less fines on the bottom, but a clearer taste as well.  

Our best regular (i.e., non-Espro) FP grind was a couple of clicks finer than the third coarses mark.  But that's only FYI.  Because your grinder is a couple of generations more advanced than mine, I doubt my FP settings will translate.  But let's not get lost in detail.  

With the Smart, coarse deserves another shot at least.

"Which is better?" isn't a question you can answer with a pot or two.  Try playing around for a few weeks before leaping to a conclusion.  And don't forget to agitate (stir) the coffee before putting the lid on.  It'll give you a better extraction either way, but with a consistently-sized coarse grind won't put extra sediment into the cup.  

And... Coffee is good for you, right?

Rich
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,219
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 12:26pm
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

BUNNZILLA

Bunzilla seems to have captured some imaginations in this thread.  Good.

My experiences aren't exactly the same as Steve's, so I'm going to talk about a few of the differences.  If it matters, the larger context is that except for those few, marginal things, we seem to be in complete agreement that Bunnzilla is either an ultimate brew, cupping and press grinder; or damn near.  Even starting with a new Bunn (as I did), it's substantially less expensive than the Malkonig and Ditting bulk grinders which grind to a similar level of performance.

Static
It's pretty dry in the San Gabriel Valley, but not the same as a Minnesota winter.  For that reason, and possibly for others, we don't have greater static issues with Bunnzilla which we don't have with our other grinders.      

Espresso
Our experience with Bunnzilla as an espresso grinder was unimpressive.  I tried it only once.  Dialing it in took forever.  I had to play around a LOT with dose and fine-tuning grind between the detent "clicks," to get anywhere close to a good dose / grind/ flow-rate and the "in the cup" results were (a) barely adequate; (b) nowhere near as good as the La Cimbali Jr. Max Hybrid, the Titan or near-Titan class grinder we were then using for espresso; and (c) so much so, it wasn't worth repeating the experiment.  

However, at the time, Bunnzilla was far sort of the level of break-in we've got on it now.  On the one hand, better break in may make for better espresso; on the other, we've seriously upped our game for our espresso-only grinder -- and I seriously doubt that Bunnzilla can compete with the Ceado.  

Steve implied that Bunnzilla was competitive in the cup with a Super Jolly, if far more trouble.  I never gave much thought to where Bunnzilla's espresso performance would land it in the greater scheme of things; but I believe Steve.  Parenthetically -- or perhaps not so parenthetically -- the more I read from Steve, the more agreement I find.  

Grinding for non-espresso
What Steve said.  

Machining Ditting Burrs for the Bunnzilla Conversion?
No, actually.  The burrs themselves require no conversion.  

The Bunn back burr piece is cast so that the teeth sit above a plate large enough to block an opening into the back of the machine.  The Ditting burrs are the same diameter as the Bunn burrs.  But the Ditting top burr (which replaces the Bunn back burr) is not on a plate.  So, to keep the opening blocked, the Ditting burr needs to be pressed fit into a spacer.

The only machining necessary is fabricating and fitting the spacer.  

Otherwise, the Ditting burrs are a drop-in replacement for the Bunn burrs and nothing else is required.

Break-in
The Ditting burrs require SUBSTANTIAL break-in.  

JohnB (Godfather of Godzilla), suggests a 15lb minimum. But Ditting says 300lbs of (raw) rice before complete break-in.  I tried 15lbs, thought the grinder was pretty good, then after hearing what Ditting said, tried more.  Ditting is right.  Since then, I've been doing 20lbs of rice every other week; at this stage I've got around 100lbs of rice through the grinder, plus a comparatively trivial  amount of coffee, and still see clear improvement in grind-size consistency as well as taste noticeably better separation and nuance with each 20lb bag of the cheapest Texmati rice money can buy.  

Eastbaysanfranman's Questions
  1. You can single dose all day long as the beans are fed by an auger eliminating the "popcorn" effect?  Yes.
  2. Even though not as airtight as keeping the beans in a bag it makes more sense to store the beans in the hopper of the zilla as no light will get to them?   No.  You want to single dose a bulk grinder.  A Bunnzilla grinds waaaaaaaaaaaaay too fast to time-dose.
  3. Do the Ditting burrs cost $320 alone?  Yes.
  4. I read that the Bunzilla is great as long as you do a step less mod as the steps are too large. I also read that you can now buy a new plate giving it over 20 steps for cheap including a new sticker. Can anyone elaborate? (Scratch that I just saw that boar had that mod.)  The mod isn't, strictly speaking, necessary as a Bunn (or Bunnzilla) can grind very happily between the detent notches.  It does, make life easier though.  All new Bunn G series come with the 30 (not 20) position, "Trifecta" detent as standard.  If you buy a used, older Bunn and want to replace the 9 position detent with a 30, the part is, as you say, inexpensive.  
    However Bunn will only sell to commercial accounts.  If you aren't commercial you'll have to order from a supplier whose parts prices are actually lower than Bunn's, but who charges an arm and a leg for shipping.  I think I paid close to $30 for the detent and sticker, of which only half was for the parts.    
  5. It seems grind waste on the Bunzilla is relatively small, can anyone concur?  As close to zero as it gets.
  6. I also heard that the burrs are extremely easy to remove to clean, true?  Depends what you mean by "easy."  You don't need special tools; you can disassemble the Bunn with a couple of flathead screwdrivers; nothing is delicate; everything is straightforward.  For routine cleaning, you can clean the burrs well enough by grinding a couple of ounces of rice at a medium setting.  But every few months (at most), or anytime you can smell the grinder, you'll want to take it apart and vacuum it clean.  

Apologies for Such a Long Post
Oh well.

Rich
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Goldensncoffee
Senior Member
Goldensncoffee
Joined: 9 Feb 2014
Posts: 77
Location: Pennsylvania
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Breville Smart, Skerton
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Rich-

As soon as these new beans get here(darn snow storm) I will try out some coarser FP grinds with this thing. It does seem like it does a pretty good job at the coarser settings...and it will improve as it breaks in eh?....cool. I think I'm getting spoiled over here with my new coffee adventures...I was at my parents house today and had a Keurig cup of "Colombia Supremo" (which i had liked not so long ago) and I almost spit it out...lol.


With the Espro, is there any issues with it being SS? Does it affect the taste? Have you noticed other SS mugs/thermoses affecting the taste? I feel like I do with my one thermos and its kinda scaring me from getting an Espro.
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sgreen
Senior Member
sgreen
Joined: 4 Apr 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Minneapolis
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Viblemme Replica E-61
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Drip: Technivorm
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 8:52pm
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Here's a pic of a set of Ditting G1 burrs we made up for a customer this week. The Burrs from Ditting were $336 delivered. After experimenting with Delrin, we tried aluminum and got less static. I haven't even attempted to break in a set of burrs. I'm just using mine daily to see what happens.

My earlier post was misleading as I was only describing how the grinder functions as a single weighed dose system. I haven't attempted to grind for espresso on the Bunzilla and probably never will. This is the exact technique I use for cupping (either SCAA or dripper or Brazen). I purge, weigh, grind, and weigh. I only meant to illustrate how a guy might find himself doing it.

For espresso I think the grind quality of my timed Super Jolly is good and it's fairly easy to use, but I'll probably get a Ceado E37 (BDL?) or a Compak K8 next. I did not mean to compare the Bunzilla to the SJ. You might be able to make the Bunzilla work for espresso, but I'm not going to try. For me the comparison is apples and oranges.

Sorry for the confusion.

sgreen: 20140213_144333.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,219
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 10:16am
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Steve,

No need to apologize.  The mistake was in my inference as much -- if not more -- than your implication.

Ceado E37s:
I'm using a Ceado E92, not an E37s (they don't offer the dosered E37 any more).  The E92 is a big conical, the E37s is a big flat.  I've never seen, much less tried an E37s.  Other than the differences of and imposed by burr shape and geometry, both are doserless, electronic walk-ups, which are -- so I understand -- otherwise extremely similar but not identical.

As a sort of generic difference, compared to Anfim, Compak, Macap, and Mazzer prosumers, Ceado is the "luxe" brand.  However, at the flagship, commercial product level, the distinction no longer holds. They're all damn good.

This probably isn't the right thread to get into it, but if you're seriously considering an E37s, I think its real doserless, walk-up, high-end Flatland competitors are the Anfim Super Caimano, Compak K-8 Fresh, Macap M7D ((a) if you can find one; (b) also marketed as a Wega; but (c) good luck finding that too); Malkonig K-30; Mazzer Major E; Nuova Simonelli Mythos; and probably some other flagship flats which elude what passes for my mind.  

If you're thinking about a Titan conical...
After a month's ownership of an E92, my feeling is that the E92 grinds at the same level as the Robur E, and that both of them edge the K-10 Fresh in the cup -- especially for mouthfeel but in other areas as well.  However, the E92 and K-10 Fresh are both a lot friendlier than the Robur E -- especially for dialing-in and neatness -- but it's almost like Mazzer prides itself on PITA qualities.

All three are fast.  The Mazzer's the fastest, grinding an 18g double in just under 4sec.  The Ceado takes 5sec, and the Compak splits the difference.  All three are quiet, with the E92 the quietest.  The Ceado and Compak street for the same price, the Mazzer is 25% more.    

Rich
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sgreen
Senior Member
sgreen
Joined: 4 Apr 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Minneapolis
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Viblemme Replica E-61
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Drip: Technivorm
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 7:04pm
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Rich, our multi topic, multi forum posts are more than a little amusing to me. I just posted a response to a comment you made about Santoker.

I will replace the Super Jolly with either a doserless Major or K-8, or E37. For no good reason whatsoever, I want a big, flat burr timed grinder. -even if I have to work up the timing circuit myself.

I'll save the conical for later. After all, a guy has to pace himself, right?
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sneakymagic
Senior Member


Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Edinburgh
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Pavoni Euro: Olympias: Club...
Grinder: Macap MC7, KrupsGVX, ANfim...
Drip: not any more
Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014, 12:38am
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Hi Folks,

Peter from Knock here - just wanted to correct a minor point on the Knock hausgrind made by Boar d laze very early on - despatch of the next batch of knock hausgrinds is due in 2-3 weeks not months, and we upped production to cope with demand such that we'll be releasing 3 batches across March with a 4th in April.

If that post can be edited then it would seem sensible to delete this one as it doesn't add anything to the discussion: not on here very often so I'm going to leave you all in peace hereafter.
thanks for considering the hausgrind might be appropriate, all the best and enjoy your kit whatever you decide on.
P
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,219
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014, 8:22am
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

sneakymagic Said:

Peter from Knock here...

Posted February 16, 2014 link

Hi Peter,

Nice catch, and I'll be happy to edit the post (not that anyone will ever read it after so much time has fled) to conform with the facts.  

I understand you've employed the elves who worked the night-shift at the cobbler's down the lane to help you catch up with the unexpected backlog of orders and are doing so as fast as humanly and non-humanly as possible.  Just to be sure we're looking at those facts through the same end of the telescope... (1) Have you now caught up with backorders; and (2) If I were to order today how long would it take to get delivery?  

I'm all in favor of good coffee for the masses -- even lumpen like me -- and hope you sell a zillion.  
Congratulations on a %*&#ing brilliant product.

Hearts or Hibs?

Rich
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sneakymagic
Senior Member


Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Edinburgh
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Pavoni Euro: Olympias: Club...
Grinder: Macap MC7, KrupsGVX, ANfim...
Drip: not any more
Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014, 2:37pm
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Hi Rich -

no back orders at all to catch up on - we currently have closed the 2nd batch orders for people who placed deposits for despatch on or around the 28th of February. All the metal work for batches 2, 3 & 4 is being done in one hit and as such the release of batch 3 will occur as fast as I can assemble them after batch 2 is out - not one deposit has been taken for batch 3 and those with a registered interest in that batch will find out first when I can be sure of date for wood parts delivery. The pinch point such as it is, is how fast the wood can be done as we don't trust just anyone to do this. Getting over the initial rush will then see us move to a more stable stock holding after the London Coffee Festival.

If you register your interest today via the website you might squeak in on batch 3 and that will be despatch 2nd-3rd week of March. If it's batch 4 then end of March.

P

PS Vanity alone had me looking to see if anyone had responded, but please understand that until I have a fulltime media manager & team answering questions on forums worldwide, particularly where I have placed the grand total of 4 posts including this one in 4 years ir somesuch, is not going to happen at all often. Consider this a safe place to call me an arse without much chance of me ever noticing!
hibs/hearts? whichever gets me a sale - as a Spurs fan it's all  the same to me.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,219
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014, 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Grinder recommendation. No espresso...yet
 

Peter,

Glad to hear you're catching up.  Your site provides enough information about whatever hiatus exists between order and shipment to require no further caveat.

Too bad about Miss Priss H-B.  The contributions you and Doug made were very informative.  I'm still trying to figure out wotthehell Tom meant by "double blind," but couldn't ask without laughing.

Rich
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