CJC Senior Member Joined: 1 Sep 2007 Posts: 10 Location: Edinburgh, UK Expertise: Pro Barista
Posted Wed Jan 29, 2014, 3:56pm Subject: Re: Ceado E92
As sweeping a general statements go by "..grinder in this class." I had meant high volume commercial and the priorities that go with that. Either is wildly excessive for home use (all credit to you if you can afford it)
I suppose it's too late to ask what "outperforms it in every way" means specifically. It's such a sweeping and general statement, it's hard to comprehend what it means practically. Is it noisier than the Robur? How could it be? Is it more of a PITA to adjust than the Robur (or any other Mazzer for that matter)? Again, how could it be? More grind retention than a Robur E? Robur E is over 20g, right? One of the Robur's greatest strengths as a high-volume commercial grinder -- speed -- is something of a weakness in a residential or low-volume setting because running the grinder to tighten the grind uses soooooooo damn much coffee. The Ceado's path sure looks shorter and simpler. Combining retention with waste from dialing in, for home use the Robur E would probably mean something like 25% to 33% waste. That's a lot even for someone who roasts more coffee than he knows what do with (no anatomical suggestions, please). And, WLL is currently flogging the E92 for a few bucks less than $2K, $600 less than a Robur E and about the same price as a K10 Fresh. "Cost efficiency" analysis doesn't really work for my situation, but I don't want to throw away money either. Does the price reduction make the E92 more competitive?
I'm not sure when I'm going to dump my La Cimbali Junior Max Hybrid in favor of something that's less of a PITA to maintain, does better distribution into the pf, and which grinds as well or better, but am resigned to the fact that "as well or better" means spending a lot of dough, and that "eventually" comes sooner rather than later.
Something with accurate, on demand dosing would be nice -- if one exists such that getting rid of stale grounds every time it sat idle for more than a few minutes didn't add up to as big a PITA as the Cimbali's maintenance regimen. With its apparently short path the Ceado looks like it might fill the bill.
Yes, but not by much. I overstated. The Robur's really pretty quiet.
Also -- just to clarify -- my experience with Roburs has not been in kitchen or residential settings.
retains less grinds
True, but ditto. Robur grind retention is widely overstated; and I wrote the "conventional wisdom," without checking for myself. I checked, I was wrong, I apologize. 10g for the Ceado, 15g for the Mazzer. As someone who roasts and usually has more beans than he knows what to do with, a clear-out isn't a deal breaker.
the grind setting is marginally easier to adjust the timer settings are far worse (really ridiculous
Disagree! The Ceado's grind settings are much easier to adjust; the Ceado's timer protocols are very similar to the Robur's, and are equally easy to adjust. It's fair to say that each is "simple, adequate, last-generation, and mildly annoying." Baratza Fortes and Breville Smarts have really good timer protocols. But... well... y'know...
The Robur is faster
Not by much. We're talking 3.8sec for the last Robur I used to grind 19g, and 5.0sec for our not-quite-broken-in E92 to do the same; and I suspect it will lose another couple of ticks.
has far simpler and easier to use electronic controls.
Disagree again. Similar item by item BS menus.
performs more predictably in changing conditions (temp, humididy etc)
Can't say. We live in Southern California where the weather varies from mild Spring to Summer and back again. Morning temperatures in our (cough) heated/air-conditioned coffee room range from low sixties to mid seventies. On the other hand, we have earthquakes, droughts, and no IrnBru.
doesn't have a safety cut off that disables the grinder and leaves you wiggling the rubber sleeve mounted hopper about for 5 minutes every time you refill the beans ..or touch it.
Haven't had the problem with the E92. Sounds like something happened to the hopper detection circuit on yours. You might consider fixing it or shorting it out.
hasn't over heated and become unusable.
Haven't had the problem with our E92, but as you say, I'm not using it in a high volume commercial situation. A dozen shots is a big day for me.
doesn't have the power switch on the back
Not an issue for me, and I don't believe it would be a problem in all but the most unusual situation. Ours is switched by the same timer as our espresso machine. In most situations, the Ceado's power switch wouldn't be used to control dosing anyway, but only turned on and off once a day.
robur E isn't that noisy ..you ever used an amfin?
You're right, and yes. The Cimbali is noisier than the Robur, too -- without being as noisy as an Anfim, Quamar, or... When it gets down to it, the Mazzer's fairly quiet and the Ceado's very quiet.
The E92 is not a bad grinder by any means, we use it for guest roasts and it is generally nice enough to use. I was 50:50 on it vs the robur for a month which is praise in itself.
I've only been using it for ten days.
Our Ceado's grind performance is significantly better than the grinder it replaced, a Cimbali Jr. Max-Hybrid -- which was no slouch. Any fears I had the Ceado would only be "just as good" were quickly dispelled.
My initial impressions are that the E92 is (1) Better than a Compak K-10 by nearly as much as its better than the Cimbali; and (2) As good as the Robur. FWIW though, the Compak grinds with fewer clumps and dispenses more neatly (Fresh or PB) than the other three.
The Ceado, after a little negotiation, was about $800 less than a Robur E, $300 less than a Compak K-10 Fresh, and only a couple of bills more than the K-10PB. Price wasn't dispositive -- but it didn't hurt either.
Most of our coffee stuff, including the espresso machine, E92, etc., etc., yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah are on a sideboard without any cabinets or shelves above them, in a (more or less) dedicated coffee room/cookbook respository (that's "REpository," quit grinning dammit!). Things like height, size and access are not the problems they might be if the equipment was installed in a typical kitchen. Perhaps we're unusual as well as lucky, but we haven't experienced problems using commercial grinders in our home -- just better grinds.
Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 11:41pm Subject: Re: Ceado E92
Man, oh man, oh man. I've been really looking at the K10 Fresh. Now I'm reading this and the Ceado E92 is looking like an even better deal. My Mahlkonig Pro-M is nice but I've been dying to give conical a try. I might have to call WLL and hear their opinions on the matter.
Why not? The person you want to talk to at WLL is Mark Jackson. His extension is 5196.
It's a shame there aren't retailers which carry top Compaks, Mazzers and Ceados so you could get an unbiased opinion with the sort of honest, collective experience which only service departments collect.
I'm not sure what to say regarding the E92 compared to the Pro-M. I've had enough, recent time with the K-30 and Robur E to compare them to one another and to the E92. From a purely in the cup perspective, the E92 and Robur E are damn near identical, and -- in my opinion -- preferable to the K30 for mouthfeel, nuance, separation, and top-end "sparkle;" while low end notes were too similar for meaningful distinctions.
In a low volume situation, the K30 and E92 are very easy to use, while the Robur is something of a pain to adjust because it's (a) stiff, (b) so awkward and so fast that you waste a LOT of beans doing adjustments.
I've also had some time on the K-10 Fresh and PB -- not as much, nor under the same critical conditions as the Robur and Mahlkonig, so... FWIW: Both are a pleasure to operate; neat, easy and quick to adjust, and they both dose beautifully. I think both are slightly better ergonomically than either the Robur or Ceado. The PB has a great doser and isn't hampered (much) by the lack of electronic controls; while I really like the Fresh's adjustment display. The Ceado has better "touch," than the Compaks or Robur, with very silky adjustment control. The Ceado is by far the easiest to deep clean in that the top burr can be removed without disturbing the grind settings.
The K-10 lacks a little mouthfeel compared to the E92 and Robur, but otherwise all are very similar in the cup.
Through most ranges, Ceado is the luxe brand compared Compak, Macap and Mazzer; but that breaks down at the flagship level where everyone's making their "price is no object," best pitch. Build quality for all of the machines in issue is overbuilt quality. Everything works, everything fits, everything's big, everything's heavy, everything's bullet-proof.
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