calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Mon Oct 15, 2012, 12:28pm Subject: Re: Upgrade Path from Nuova Simonelli MDX grinder
russel Said:
I've owned and used a lot of grinders, and I can say unequivocally that a grinder with a digital timer and a pulse grinding switch is better than the manual/auto/timer equivalent. So, I would be happy with a Super Jolly E or Major E or Kony E or Robur E, but I have no interest whatsoever in their auto/manual/timer siblings.
It's possible to do both on your budget, but you have to take a side step into increased coffee geekery. You could track down whatever large burr auto/manual grinder suits you and then add a timer to it. Like a Major on a GraLab timer or a Delta-in-a-project-box DIY deal. This way you upgrade to both adjustable/repeatable dosing and larger/conic burrs. I happen to think that everyone with an auto/manual/timer grinder who doesn't single dose should be doing this; it improves your consistency dose to dose and costs less than $100.
Am I missing something or are you taking both sides of the discussion? I have both, the dark room timer operated manual/timer dosered grinder and the fully automatic bump switch self weighing/dosing grinder.
Is one better than the other? Well, I think they are different but one is not markedly better than the other. The automatic takes up less room on the counter so it is the one I use. I could easily settle for a good quality commercial grinder operating on a timer though. There are advantages to both ways to go. The auto grinder takes up less room and is easy to use but so is the darkroom timer operated manual/timer grinder which can grind for my next shot while my PF is in use pulling a shot. Different.... yes. One better than the other? I don't think so. YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
I don't think I'm contradicting myself. The first part of my point is about what you can buy for $600-$800, and what the OP could expect to gain. I guess I could add a "IMHO" but really that should go without saying seeing that this isn't some sort of blind taste comparison (that's what HB is for). Would it be more clear if I stated that I'm talking mostly about workflow and repeatable dose accuracy and not grind quality (although better repeatable dose accuracy does lead to better espresso making on the Barista's end)?
calblacksmith Said:
Is one better than the other? Well, I think they are different but one is not markedly better than the other. The automatic takes up less room on the counter so it is the one I use. I could easily settle for a good quality commercial grinder operating on a timer though. There are advantages to both ways to go. The auto grinder takes up less room and is easy to use but so is the darkroom timer operated manual/timer grinder which can grind for my next shot while my PF is in use pulling a shot. Different.... yes. One better than the other? I don't think so. YMMV!
Wayne, I think you are actually agreeing with what I was saying. Both of the grinders you're talking about (I assume your Azkoyen and Major+GraLab+SSR?) are using some for of electronic grind/dose control. This isn't about dosers/doserless, it's about electronic grinding controls vs manual (switch flipping) controls. A grinder has one job, to deliver a consistently ground dose of coffee repeatedly, and using electronics to control and repeat the dose is better ("IMO") than relying on manually starting and stopping the grinder every time. Without some serious deal finding, I don't think that the OP can afford a grinder that upgrades both his burr set and his dose control out of the box. He probably could afford to upgrade his burrs and then add a timer to upgrade his dose control, but thats not simply a "which grinder do I purchase" option.
hankua Senior Member Joined: 29 Aug 2009 Posts: 204 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Salvatore One Black Grinder: Pharos,Rossi RR45OD, Lido,... Drip: CCD Roaster: Yang-Chia 800n
Posted Tue Oct 16, 2012, 6:14am Subject: Re: Upgrade Path from Nuova Simonelli MDX grinder
What about getting a Pharos to see if you like the Titan conical attributes? Easy to sell used for $200 or keep as a backup. Macap MXK is the least expensive new titan conical at $850, maybe you could post a WTB in the buy/sell forum. Max hybrid is another one to look at and well regarded by coffeegeeks. There was a seller on eBay that would let one go new for 550-600$, and possible to get one here on CG used in that price range.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 5:58am Subject: Re: Upgrade Path from Nuova Simonelli MDX grinder
Russel I didn't want to imply anything, I was confused, I'm sorry.
On your further elaboration, yes I think we are both on the same page, yes those are the two grinders I am talking about but I tried to stay in general terms rather than machine specifics. However, I went old school and used a coil based relay vs a SSR but that is a hair that makes no difference if it is split or not LOL!
I did not intend to say doser-less etc is one or the other side of anything, rather, due to the doser and the timer start/control of the Major/SJ vs the grind/dose of the Azkoyen, I work faster with the timer combo as I can do two things at the same time rather than waiting for the grinder to do it's thing so I guess in a round about way, I did use a doser argument, which I did not intend.
The timer combo uses more counter space and there is the issue of extra cords on the counter but your major point of electronic control to guide the grinder it it's primary job, I agree with over manual weighing and grinding ALA manual single shot weigh/grind/dispense.
A control system of some sort allows a faster work flow and at the same time a consistent grind volume and dose. Of course the issue of grind retention comes into play but that is true for any way you go and you need to decide what you can live with and how to address any issue of retention that your grinder has, whatever make/style it is.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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