bobertstowers Senior Member Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 19 Location: St. Louis Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Brewtus II Grinder: Starbucks Barista Burr
Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012, 11:19am Subject: A grinder for a up and comer
Hey folks, I have been reading this forum and website for a couple years now and have made a couple posts so if you haven't come across me on the site...HELLO!! I started my love for coffee working at the dreaded greened aproned death place for coffee...of course I say this jokingly as I'd do after all have tem to thank for my love of coffee and my desires to explore it more. After I quit working there I bought a Gaggia Baby...the old school red and black one, I think they call tithe Classic now. It recently bit the dust and wasn't really worth fixing (this is what happens when a newbie has no clue how to clean and maintain an espresso machine) so I decided to upgrade and found a great deal on Craigslist on an Expobar Brewtus II. While I was deciding what machine to get I put up a post here about what I should do about machine and grinder. Of course everyone told me to go for a lesser machine and a better grinder. I guess I wasn't making myself clear because I had a grinder, though it wasn't great, and no espresso machine and was wanting to upgrade both. So I decided to go with the espresso machine first and then later upgrade the grinder. I think it was a good decision and now I'm ready and have the funds to upgrade my grinder.
So my question...I am an over analyzer and want the "perfect" equipment so I know that I'm getting the best I can...I know that isn't possible and that the perfect grinder and machine doesn't exist. However, I want to get the best I can with the money I have. I have been going back and fourth on a few but would love to get suggestions. I've heard great things about Minis, Juniors, M4s, etc. etc. Remember this is just for home use and typically brew 4-6 shots per day. I don't keep beans in my hopper because I don't use enough. Most of the reviews on grinders I've read recently are several years old. Are there newer grinders I should consider? I've read a lot of discussion on the Doser vs doserless debate and feel like the answer always ends on..."really it depends on the user"...which isn't helpful.
So looking over this I am seeing that it's really long so I will stop. Any thoughts/suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Bobertstowers
Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012, 11:29am Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
I'm a big fan of the Baratza Vario for my coffee making based on its excellent grind quality and ease of use. Since getting one my Super Jolly has been dormant (but still on the ol' coffee cart).
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,761 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012, 12:10pm Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
HI, sorry about the "it depends on the user" answer but that is the closest anyone can get to the subject. It really comes down to how YOU feel about it, how YOU like to work. There are advantages to both sides, my PERSONAL opinion is that I would rather have a doser than not.
That said, my current grinder on the bench is doserless, well it really isn't doserless or dosered, it is an automatic, it grinds, weighs and drops the grounds into the PF all in one shot, taking about 4 to 5 seconds for the whole operation.
I have 2 SJs on standby, one with and one without dosers. I MUCH prefer the SJ WITH a doser and I think I will soon reinstall the doser to the one that has the Mazzer doserless adaptor on it, that is if I don't sell one or the other first (I have 3 total SJs :O )
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012, 10:09pm Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
I think that the biggest decision to make when assembling a set up on a generous budget up would be consumer vs. commercial equipement. There is a huge difference in size, longevity, and cost when you cross over into the commercial side of things. As you move from consumer to commercial you cross the line of rapidly diminishing returns for your investment. Commercial equipement is built for precision and very high volume, the later of which you will never really push at home. What you do get in the commercial realm is choice. The well regarded high end consumer grinders would be the Baratza Vario (regular or W, I had a regular and loved it), and I guess the Mahlkoenig ProM...and not much else. Once you cross over into low end commercial equipement you suddenly have more choices: burr size, burr type, timer/manual/auto, doser A, doser B..., doserless, stepped, continuous adjustment, worm gears, built in catch tray, separate catch tray, etc. Having choices is great, even better if you can find a way to test out the options with your hands instead of you eyes and imagination. The problem is that commercial equipment is always a compromise in the home. Its just not made for home use the way a Baratza Vario is. Everything you do to make it work will be a hack of some sort or involve a lot of purging and a lot of wasted coffee. The physical presence of commercial equipement is a concern too. Its big. Really big. It's big in way that will remind you that it was not ment to live in your home. This may irk you or it may turn you on. I have a conflicted relationship with my commercial grinders. Some days they are exciting and powerful and on others I know that they smack of excess and a bit of shallow amateurish posturing (I'm sort of a quasi-coffee professional, but I don't run a cafe, I'm not a barista, there is no practical reason for me to have as high end a commercial grinder as I have).
As you may have noticed, my gear puts me in the commercial camp, but I'm well aware of its short comings and reminded of them on a daily basis. The non-technical differences between commercial and consumer gear often falls to the wayside as burrs size and motor speeds come into play, and you can quickly find yourself in an arms race agains no one.
bobertstowers Senior Member Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 19 Location: St. Louis Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Brewtus II Grinder: Starbucks Barista Burr
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 9:18am Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
Russel...I'm trying to read between the lines of your answer and feel like I'm having trouble. It sounds like you are advising against commercial machines yet at the same time advising towards them. There are things I like a out the vario and things I don't one of the biggest downsides would be all of the plastic. It seems as though something like a mini would last longer than the vario. Another thing would be the stepped grinding. I don't have any experience with stepless but like the idea of the "infinite" possibilities.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,761 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 9:35am Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
Really? Personal opinions are fine but to make a blanket statement ... this is again, a personal way to work. There are advantages to whichever way you want to go, my preference IS for a doser, I do not advise EITHER WAY, I TRY TO FIND THE NEEDS OF THE OP AND DIRECT THEM TO WHAT WILL WORK BETTER FOR THEM, I DO NOT INSERT MY PERSONAL BIAS INTO ADVICE.
There are as many pro reasons to have one as there are against them and visa versa, there are reasons to go commercial as well as consumer and size isn't the only thing to take into account, nor is budget.
Please try to remove your bias from your advice and answer to the best solution for the needs of the person asking the question!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 9:50am Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
bobertstowers Said:
Russel...I'm trying to read between the lines of your answer and feel like I'm having trouble. It sounds like you are advising against commercial machines yet at the same time advising towards them. There are things I like a out the vario and things I don't one of the biggest downsides would be all of the plastic. It seems as though something like a mini would last longer than the vario. Another thing would be the stepped grinding. I don't have any experience with stepless but like the idea of the "infinite" possibilities.
What he's saying is that there are so many choices in grinders that you have to decide whats right for you.
Commercial grinders can be overkill/oversized but if it makes you happy go for it.
Consumer grinders can be more practical, economical and sized to fit in a normal kitchen. They wont be as fast or last as long as commercial(theoretically).
HTDAVE Said:
The vario, with about 240 steps" is for all rational purposes stepless.
The grinder is the most important thing in your setup. That doesn't mean that I would recommend simply buying the most expensive one you can. In the $300-$1000 range the best choices are going to be the Vario and the Mazzer Super Jolly.
Doser grinders tend to be large, commercial in nature, and slightly messier that doserless. They will outlive most humans and the doser is an advantage when it comes to basket prep(no clumps and even distribution). Used properly, they can make some of the best shots in the world.
Doserless grinders come in a wide range of choices. The lower end ones can produce a clumpy grind and require WDT to fix distribution issues. Under the $800+ range, they are usually very consumer in nature. The best ones go for $1300+. Examples include the Mahlkonig K30 Series, The Compak K10 Fresh, Macap M7DK, and the Mazzer Robur and Kony E-models. The Baratza Vario is what a statistician would call an outlier. It is a consumer grinder that produces in-the-cup results on par with the K30. It is constructed with some plastics as opposed to the heavy metal construction of the commercial grinders.
Oh, and I should add that i would not recommend a Mazzer Mini. If you're set on buying one, I'd recommend either the Vario or the Super Jolly instead.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,761 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:01am Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
A few additions to the above. a USED Super Jolly is in the price range quoted, new they crack $700. In good shape, they will last nearly for ever so for the most part, all a used one need (aside from possibly a coat of paint) is a new set of burrs at around $50.
My personal discovery between doser and doserless, even on the same grinder is that a doser, for me, is vastly cleaner than doserless, I guess that is what makes a horse race though huh?
As for the mini, if you get a steal of a deal on a used one, they are good grinders, not as good as a SJ though, which sell at a very reasonable price when used. At the new price of the mini, I would not put it on my long list, not to mention the short one.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Posted Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:15am Subject: Re: A grinder for a up and comer
calblacksmith Said:
My personal discovery between doser and doserless, even on the same grinder is that a doser, for me, is vastly cleaner than doserless, I guess that is what makes a horse race though huh?
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 