JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011, 11:29pm Subject: Re: Is my Mazzer Mini Electronic holding me back?
DanH Said:
Jason, I’m curious how you can say the Mini to Max Hybrid upgrade was the biggest single upgrade you’ve ever done yet you are downplaying that here. The shots I’m getting from my Mini Electronic are good but not great, so I’m not looking for a night and day difference – more dawn and day. Why wouldn’t the results you got be applicable to me?
The Mazzer Mini and the Mazzer Mini-E are two very different grinders -- the "regular" Mazzer Mini has a 58mm flat burr set, while the Mazzer Mini-E utilizes a 64mm flat burr set. This is comparable to a "regular" Mazzer Super Jolly, which uses a (IIRC) different 64mm burr set.
As I mentioned above, I owned the regular Mazzer Mini, not the "E" (thus, 58mm flat burrs). I upgraded from that to a Cimbali Max Hybrid, which employs a 64mm flat-conical burr set. That was, as I said above, the single largest improvement any equipment ever made to my espresso.
Now, let me also say I've moved on from that grinder, and now have a Mahlkönig K30 Vario, which I certainly prefer. I also have a Baratza Vario (54mm ceramic flat burrs) as my secondary grinder.
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011, 9:16am Subject: Re: Is my Mazzer Mini Electronic holding me back?
To summarize, I’m hearing the loudest voices opine that a new grinder won’t help appreciably. That said, I’ll be interested to learn how the Versalab M3 changes things for sparkey.
Jason, I thought the Mini E was the same as the Mini only doserless with electronic timing. I’m hearing from you that the Mini E is a step up from the Mini. That’s good to know.
I guess this all means I have to accept that I am the weakest link! Oh well – that may be the cheapest thing to fix and it is my hobby, after all.
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011, 10:10am Subject: Re: Is my Mazzer Mini Electronic holding me back?
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
I'm not sure I understand the question.
The Mazzer Mini and the Mazzer Mini-E are two very different grinders -- the "regular" Mazzer Mini has a 58mm flat burr set, while the Mazzer Mini-E utilizes a 64mm flat burr set. This is comparable to a "regular" Mazzer Super Jolly, which uses a (IIRC) different 64mm burr set.
That different burr set may be the most confusing thing Mazzer's ever done. Any of the threads discussing the Mini-E I've read indicated that it definitely tests below the SJ still, so it's "more Mini than SJ" despite the burr size. It seems the aggressive cutting pattern has more to do with taste than diameter if that's true.
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
Whoever said Mazzer was "yesterday's news"??? The only reason they were in the news yesterday is that they were around yesterday! (As opposed to the relative newcomers to the scene, such as Baratza, Compak, etc., etc.) The good news is that Mazzer is also today's news, and will be tomorrow's news, too! (And keep in mind that this is coming from someone who has, many times, posted that the single biggest improvement ever made to my espresso was when I replaced my Mazzer Mini -- not the "E" model -- with a Cimbali Max Hybrid!)
+1. Mazzer still has arguably the best build quality around (Mahlkonig probably ties that build...and also the price), and Mazzers are generally still the standard by which all other grinders are judged (notice how often people around here will say "as good as the SJ" or "something in SJ class", etc? And the most famous part of the Titan Grinder Project is the "Will it Beat the Robur?" test, where all the Titans (and some non-titans) were compared next to a Robur. Mazzer still stands as the baseline, and by tradition, I don't see that changing.
The reason you'll see it mentioned less in PRACTICE is simply due to value. Some of the newcomers like Compak etc are providing a lot more value for the home user because they're similar grind quality to some of these Mazzers but they shed some of the extreme armor and bulk and absurdly overbuilt motors the Mazzers wield and come in at a lower price. At home, we don't really even need the durability provided by the commercial Compak, Quamar, etc brands let alone the cafe overkill that is Mazzer, so less people are opting to pay the extra for Mazzer. But that doesn't mean Mazzer isn't still a Cadillac of grinder makers. Who doesn't drool when thinking of Robur, Kony, or Major? :)
I remain unconvinced re: the flat-versus-conical debate. I believe there is a difference, but that difference is exaggerated in print, and is far more subtle in side-by-side comparisons in the cup, which is -- after all-- where it counts. That said, conicals do seem to emphasize the "brighter" aspects of a particular coffee bean/blend, while flat burr sets seem to emphasize the deeper bass notes, if you will. But the difference is subtle one; it's one of degrees, rather than "day-and-night."
+1 again, you're pretty much spot on. There IS a difference between the profiles of my K10 (conical) and K8 (flat), and I absolutely prefer the K10's profile, but the K8 comes pretty close. If I didn't own both, I probably wouldn't care. Where conical DOES excel, however, is in dialing in a grind, and there's no doubt about that difference. It makes it much easier to get a proper pour and much harder to get a bad one. There are still times I get spritzers with the K8, I never do on the K10. While both the K8 and the K10 have equally small pinpoints of accuracy for the "perfect" pour, the K10 is much more forgiving in terms of where I set the grind and how "loose" I can be in my manner of adjustment. That doesn't mean I don't do minor tweaks and adjustments of fractions of an inch to dial it to be perfect. But it means that shots I make while adjusting for perfection are still pretty darn good, while the dialing shots on the K8 can be a little "off" at the finish (or blond early, etc.)
Degrees of improved flavor aside, I'd say the more significant difference between conical and flat isn't the flavor so much as the forgiveness, and subsequent consistency in shots, even in dialing. The caveat here is everyone keeps telling me how the Mahlkonig K30 is just as easy to dial. I did read somewhere recently where someone noted that the K30 is more conical-like in dialing than other flats. That may be so given the feedback that pops up around it...so that may be one grinder the general methodologies and comparisons don't apply to.
Also, while I can't comment on the original or the electronic Mini, I can comment on the Compak K3 which is "Mini-class", though many at the time rated it as a little better due to its fluffier grind, so it may compare more to Mini-E...I'm not sure. In either case, the jump to "large flats" isn't much less significant than the jump to conicals. There's a substantial difference between the K3 and K8, only a moderate difference between the K8 and K10 (conical.) How that fits into Mazzer comparisons I'll leave to interpretation.
Where "better" becomes "want" becomes "have to have", is individual preference, and determined in large part by budget, decor, and desired method of usage. I have no doubt that a grinder upgrade would probably provide improved coffee over the Mini-E assuming all other variables are equal. How much of an upgrade it would be, and if the grinder is your primary source of trouble is a different question. A new grinder very possibly COULD solve your needs. I wouldn't pick conical purely due to the fruit flavors, but if you're grinder shopping, it's worth keeping that in consideration. My feeling is you won't compare, say, a K8 and K10 and say "wow, that K10 has so much more fruit taste"...it's just an edge toward the fruit/citrus end of the spectrum. The conicals may separate flavors more, but then, so does the saturated group on the GS/3 compared to an E61. What I found from K3 to K8 was much more CLARITY in the cup. (That is to say, going from a Mini-class grinder to an "SJ or better" class grinder. I'm hesitant to suggest there's any difference between SJ and any other flat burr grinder above its class after JonR10's blind test results, but I'm also hesitant to state his observations are universal fact either...) ) But again, keep in mind that it seems Mini-E is "somewhere between Mini and SJ", and I don't know where that factors in compared to K3. Despite my downplaying of the difference between the K10 and K8, though, if I were told I could only have shots from one of them ever again, I'd pick the K10 without hesitating. It's the subtleties of the slightly brighter edge, slightly more separated flavors, and near-impossibility of a ruined shot during dialing that make that decision. There's no major "it's better" result, but just a combination of a few subtleties.
I grinder upgrade won't hurt your coffee, it probably will help your coffee, but at the same time, I think what everyone's been trying to say is to not feel pressured that you simply won't get good coffee without the upgrade either or that the Mini-E is a BAD grinder, it certainly isn't. But at the same time I don't think anyone's trying to suggest that there aren't BETTER grinders at a myriad of prices as well. There are better grinders than minis, which do produce better coffee. But that doesn't mean the Mini-E isn't capable of producing excellent coffee, even if its bigger brothers are superior. Mazzer has a reputation to uphold, they don't sell poor grinders. Whether the flavor issue your experiencing is because you're comparing your shots to shots from a better grinder, or shots from a more skilled barista I don't think we can help you decide... :)
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011, 11:58am Subject: Re: Is my Mazzer Mini Electronic holding me back?
TheMadTamper Said:
That different burr set may be the most confusing thing Mazzer's ever done. Any of the threads discussing the Mini-E I've read indicated that it definitely tests below the SJ still, so it's "more Mini than SJ" despite the burr size. It seems the aggressive cutting pattern has more to do with taste than diameter if that's true.
Probably true, and that's my bad -- I appreciate the fine tuning correction. Thanks.
TheMadTamper Said:
Where conical DOES excel, however, is in dialing in a grind, and there's no doubt about that difference. It makes it much easier to get a proper pour and much harder to get a bad one . . . . Degrees of improved flavor aside, I'd say the more significant difference between conical and flat isn't the flavor so much as the forgiveness, and subsequent consistency in shots, even in dialing. The caveat here is everyone keeps telling me how the Mahlkonig K30 is just as easy to dial. I did read somewhere recently where someone noted that the K30 is more conical-like in dialing than other flats. That may be so given the feedback that pops up around it...so that may be one grinder the general methodologies and comparisons don't apply to.
FWIW, from everything I have read (not having owned a conical myself), I would agree that conicals are a) easier to dial-in, and b) more forgiving, that most flat-burr grinders. That said, let me add that, based on personal experience, the Mahlkönig K30 Vario is indeed the easiest flat I've ever owned to dial in, and needs less adjustment as time goes on.
I had the opportunity to try a 68mm conical along side a large flat burr grinder. I did not see the heavens open when I tasted the shot from the large conical. The best shot of the day came from the flat burr grinder in fact. Neither is even close to bad so the taste argument is overblown in my opinion. I would take either and be happy.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
That’s not true. The purpose of my post is simply to get to the bottom of why my shots at home don’t stand up to the best shots I’ve had at my favorite coffee shops.
My premise is that it’s my grinder. I would love to have the opportunity to do a grind-off against one or more of today’s most sought after grinders. That’s the only way I would know for sure. No luck there so far, so I’m left picking the collective brain of the community.
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011, 6:48pm Subject: Re: Is my Mazzer Mini Electronic holding me back?
DanH Said:
That’s not true. The purpose of my post is simply to get to the bottom of why my shots at home don’t stand up to the best shots I’ve had at my favorite coffee shops.
My premise is that it’s my grinder. I would love to have the opportunity to do a grind-off against one or more of today’s most sought after grinders. That’s the only way I would know for sure. No luck there so far, so I’m left picking the collective brain of the community.
I am pretty sure you misunderstood the meaning of the post you quoted - far from being a direct response to your question, it was an answer to a much older, more often asked question on espresso enthusiast forums:
Large flat burr vs. large conical burr.
Each has a following that is deserved, but too often someone asks "which is better?". The answers usually line up based on what the poster owns - hence the statement by joatmon. Not many have owned both types - he has - so there is wisdom gained from experience in his words. I have only tried both kinds - still puts me in a small group - but my experience lines up with his.
Good luck finding the grinder to take your espresso to the next level whether it's burrs are conical or flat.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011, 7:15pm Subject: Re: Is my Mazzer Mini Electronic holding me back?
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
FWIW, from everything I have read (not having owned a conical myself), I would agree that conicals are a) easier to dial-in, and b) more forgiving, that most flat-burr grinders. That said, let me add that, based on personal experience, the Mahlkönig K30 Vario is indeed the easiest flat I've ever owned to dial in, and needs less adjustment as time goes on.
I am wondering, the burrs probably do contribute to the easier dial-in process, but doesn't the dial-in forgiveness factor depend also on the threaded collar? By my common sense, if the threads are narrower (the vertical distance traveled per turn is lower), then the grinding range will become broader. Is my common sense flawed?
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