Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011, 9:02pm Subject: Re: refurbished baratza maestro making a grinding/rubbing noise
chasemonster Said:
That's okay. At the same time, your mis-diagnosis of the problems that we are experiencing with our grinders doesn't give me pause for concern, because I don't think you understand how a grinder is supposed to work.
So, you know ME well enough to assume i know nothing about grinders? Nice try, but I refuse to get into it on a personal basis with you.
I will say your "test" was a joke, and picking up the grinder and waving it around...what was that about? No product is perfect, not even Mazzer grinders, and I owned 2 of them. Great grinders, but with their issues as well.
The "what's with you moderators" type comment is another clue that you have a problem with anyone who disagrees with you. I suggest you send that you video to Kyle at Baratza for HIS comments. Would you then also accuse HIM of knowing nothing about grinders if he responds as did Craig and I?
chasemonster Senior Member Joined: 3 Jun 2010 Posts: 364 Location: Chicago Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Audrey Grinder: Hario Mini Mill Drip: V60
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011, 9:12pm Subject: Re: refurbished baratza maestro making a grinding/rubbing noise
I don't have an issue with the way my Baratza Barista model grinds. Never did! I didn't buy it for espresso. I bought it because I wanted to use it for a V60 pour over. Exclusively. Naturally I made a shot or two with it in my mypressi twist just to check it out, but that was it. I always planned to use a grinder separately for espresso. Preferably, the Vario, which I did end up ordering. The reason I wanted a separate V60 pour-over grinder is because I had read complaints about switching back and forth with the Vario from other users. So for only $69 from Baratza for their Starbucks Barista grinder, the problem was solved for my V60.
Anyway, I forgot all about the funky noise that the Baratza Barista grinder made at the espresso settings, until I read this thread and saw that Lady_Croft was possibly experiencing the same issues with her grinders that I had witnessed with mine at the finer settings. That is why I made the video, so that she could watch it and see if this was the same noise that was coming from her grinders.
That's all this was about!!!!!! But for trying to help someone, all of a sudden I was being attacked and accused of trying to destroy my grinder and why would I do such a thing and you are abusing your grinder and you are destroying your burrs and mashing them together and if that's the way you treat your grinders you will destroy your Vario when you get it!! etc etc etc.
I don't understand this kind of rage I am experiencing here from other posters. I have always tried to be polite and on my best behavior here. Anyway, go figure.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2011, 9:21pm Subject: Re: refurbished baratza maestro making a grinding/rubbing noise
samuellaw178 Said:
haha. Yeah, I understand your feeling. You were just trying to help. Getting accused or unappreciated when you're trying to help is the worst feel ever. I've felt that a few times in my life and it's really saddening+maddening. Lol.
Accusing you to sabotage your grinder intentionally is probably too much but they probably don't mean it that way in the first place. It just probably come off the wrong way.
Anyway, this shouldn't be leading to a thread war. There's no benefits in doing so. An apologize from either party will probably solve this (I hope).
Samuel, I have to assume that the user of this grinder would have the good sense not to move the hopper so far to the fine side they'd get a sound such as what chasemonster so easily brought to fore.
TThat grinder sounded exactly as it should at the beginning. At no time has Lady croft or cgase EVER showed us what the grind looked like when the grinder was set to the center drip area. as some/you have correctly stated, Baratza has set these grinder a bit to the fine area. I guess it's their thinking that is to PREVENT folks from going to close to heavy burr rub. Yes, there is an Fine/espresso marking, and YES it can easily grind fine enough. I always felt the espresso marking was as much a reference point to the left, and press to the right. Espresso grind is passable, but the main use was meant to be all purpose. The re-ajustment to a coarse scale is not complicated.
Though it will then permit a bit more area for coarse adjustment, the result is as much cosmetic. meaning, NOW you can swing the hopper to the "fine" side, but you will actually get a less fine result due to adjusting to the coarser profile.
Again, what's missing in this whole conversation is THE RESULTANT GRIND!! What does the ground coffee look like at the middle hopper setting? If it's coarse like presspot grind, then YES, the grinder need to be re-calibrated to the finer profile. If the grind fells more like sugar than salt, then the grinder is calibrated toward the fine side.
But under NO circumstances should the hopper be turned so far to the fine side that the sound produced by7 chasemonster should EVER be duplicated for more than a second or 2.
This reminds me of espresso conversations that center on the LOOKS of a pour, and not on the TASTE.
I'm truly like to hear from Lady croft as to what the resultant grind FEELS like when the grinder is set just a wee bit to the fine side of center.
I'm willing to bet it feels a bit like sugar. If not, then it DOES need to be re-calibrated by her to the finer calibration setting.
I have two of these (Maestro and Virtuoso) - both do not make this sound at the fine setting because they are calibrated correctly. Virtuoso from the factory, Maestro by me after following the instructions in the pdf.
I set up a Capresso Infinity style grinder to make powder - it will adjust into burr rub because I set it up this way.
It is nice that you shared the video. Better she uses the dial as a reference guide (12 is burr rub, don't grind past 12) or re calibrate. A cool video showing her how to re calibrate her grinder would be really neat.
Thank you for your valuable input. The burrs touching at 12 is how mine came out of the box. I still twisted it all the way around to 1 anyway when I first tried it out, to grind up 18 grams for my mypressi to see what it could do. And man, just listening to that grinder gobble up the beans at the 1 setting was truly a beautiful sound. And with a nutating tamp and 30lbs pressure, it did produce a sweet 1 oz extraction. It was just an experiment. And when I tried it again, it wasn't the same -it started out slow and then sped up after 12 seconds to create too fast of a pour. So, I was done with it for espresso at that point. It doesn't matter anyway, because it grinds perfectly for my V60. I just made a very rich cup with a setting at 27, but will be experimenting more and more in the coming weeks and months.
When I said mashing, I don''t mean 'smashing" together. I'm meaning two machined pieces of hardened tool steel being brought together. Doesn't matter if you're using your fingertips ot turning the hopper with your teeth, kidding aside. You're taking your grinder (say with a burr contact at +11) to what looks to be at zero on the other end, & not for a second or two either. Yes, you're getting a 100% unbiased opinion. I've said this before, but the Baratza grinders are calibrated (that's burr shimming under the lower conical burr., to have a factory default burr contact at +10 to +11. If this was setup to occur at say a +3, as the burrs wear over time you have to adjust down finer to get the same degree of grind. You'd run out of adjustability room.
I've also posted may pics of Baratza parts, & the calibration ring. The center position slot is the factory default position, unless that's changed at Baratza, or a customer asks how they'd like their grinder to be set up (calibrated).
KyleAnderson Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2009 Posts: 31 Location: Bellevue Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011, 7:35am Subject: Re: refurbished baratza maestro making a grinding/rubbing noise
Hello to All who have posted or read these posts, First off, please accept my apologies for weighing in so late in this "discussion". I normally do make a practice of looking in on these forums but i am currently in Europe at a show and have been here traveling for over a week with VERY limited internet connection, hence i am only now learning of this lengthy thread. I appreciate all who have contributed and I am sorry to see some of it turn heated. I believe all mean well but passions seem to run high when related to one's coffee enjoyment. I would like to set the record straight about how and why we calibrate our grinders the way we do (new and refurbished). For the Maestro/Maestro Plus/ Starbucks Barista we set up the burrs to BEGIN to touch (with NO beans in the system) at 12-14. Our experience has shown this provides for maximum range of resultant grind (from Espresso to French press). In our online comparison chart ( http://www.baratza.com/brewing-chart.php ) we distinguish "espresso" into four categories:(b) "Grinding for Espresso:
As you can see on the chart above, espresso falls into four categories.
Moka or stovetop espresso machines require a fine grind which all of our grinders can provide. Pump Espresso machines with a pressurized portafilter usually sell for $300. The pressurized portafilter is designed to create pressure, relying less on the accuracy of the grind. All our grinders can provide this grind. Pump Espresso machines with a non-pressurized filter require a very fine and accurate grind. The grind, dose and tamp create the pressure for a great espresso. The Virtuoso, Preciso, and Vario will give you the fine, accurate grind you need. If you are looking for an espresso grinder that can be dialed in for the perfect espresso (typically $500+ espresso machines), consider the Preciso or the Vario that have micro adjustment for fine tuning the grind."(x)
So the M/M+ and Starbucks Barista are not really capable of a very fine espresso grind. EVEN when set to factory calibration where the burrs touch (without beans) at 12-14. Now let me explain a little bit about the burrs touching at this setting and why this is our intention:
In the process of grinding beans (and depending on how hard the beans are (origin, degree of roast, age, etc)) the burrs are being forced apart by the beans. We find a grinder whose burrs begin to touch at 12-14, will produce a good espresso grind WITH beans between the burrs, and the burrs do not touch during grinding. This is also the reason that with ALL grinders (household and professional) that the grinder will need to be adjusted when the beans are changed. The forces applied to the burrs will vary from bean to bean, hence the resultant degree of grind will vary for a given grind setting. As an aside, our Vario calibration instructions clearly instruct people to "zero" the grinder by calibrating the burrs to touch when the Micro setting is at the half way point.
SO, in summary, and from the horses mouth, the videos I have viewed (bad as they sound) are representative of a properly calibrated (new and refurbished) Starbucks grinder.
I hope this post will help to clear the air, though i fear i may well have created some new issues/questions to arise. I will be leaving the trade show here in Italy tonight and traveling through Europe with again limited internet access, so I may be slow in replying to any posts that may result from this. Regards, Kyle (President, Baratza)
chasemonster Senior Member Joined: 3 Jun 2010 Posts: 364 Location: Chicago Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Audrey Grinder: Hario Mini Mill Drip: V60
Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011, 8:17am Subject: Re: refurbished baratza maestro making a grinding/rubbing noise
KyleAnderson Said:
For the Maestro/Maestro Plus/ Starbucks Barista we set up the burrs to BEGIN to touch (with NO beans in the system) at 12-14. Our experience has shown this provides for maximum range of resultant grind (from Espresso to French press).
We find a grinder whose burrs begin to touch at 12-14, will produce a good espresso grind WITH beans between the burrs, and the burrs do not touch during grinding.
SO, in summary, and from the horses mouth, the videos I have viewed (bad as they sound) are representative of a properly calibrated (new and refurbished) Starbucks grinder.
If I am understanding this correctly, you are calibrating the burrs to begin touching (with no beans in the hopper) at the 12-14 setting in order for the grinder to produce the best results possible in the 1 to 14 range. And as long as there are beans in the hopper, it is okay to grind in the 1 to 14 range. Is this correct?
Posted Mon Oct 24, 2011, 8:58am Subject: Re: refurbished baratza maestro making a grinding/rubbing noise
chasemonster Said:
If I am understanding this correctly, you are calibrating the burrs to begin touching (with no beans in the hopper) at the 12-14 setting in order for the grinder to produce the best results possible in the 1 to 14 range. And as long as there are beans in the hopper, it is okay to grind in the 1 to 14 range. Is this correct?
Yeah, I think that's what he meant. It's probably a bear though to use those grinders at espresso range if you're coming from coarse range. Either you have to clear the beans in/on the burrs & hoppers and turn the hopper to the fine range powered off, or you have to run the grinder with beans in while switching to espresso fine slowly. Otherwise you might get the burr rub going from coarse to fine without beans in hopper.
So it's really a better idea to get a dedicated grinder just for espresso. The lower end grinders are not really intended for extensive espresso use.
I guess there's no way 'round to get a godshot. :P
On a lighter note" No need to be sorry... My mother named me William (after William Few, signer of the Constitution and my Grandpa 7 generations removed) but my friends call me Bill. Both are correct. It's like being named Robert and going by Bob. I put "Bill" in my signature line so folks would know my name (nickname) without having to go to my profile.
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