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Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
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Discussions > Espresso > Grinders -... > Technically and...  
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cappuccinoboy
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Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
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Posted Mon Jul 6, 2009, 2:20pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

JonR10 Said:

You seem to think I am just giving theory but I am referencing actual test data to back up my assertions.  Also, it might surprise you to know that I have been making espresso every day for over 20 years, so I have a bit of experience myself, sir.  In my profession, testing results are much more credible than other unsupported claims.  ;-)
.........
Testing has been done that shows a different particle size distribution from conical vs. flat burrs.  This indicates that each burr type has it's own characteristic, and some folks can certainly taste the difference.  This is also why the conical burrs seem more forgiving of grind adjustment.  
..........



.

Posted July 6, 2009 link

Jon, we are just looking at things like two guys watching the river flow from opposite sides: I have the highest consideration of what you think and the offer of your personal experience, when I say that there is a lot to be learned I mean that very often theory is correct but market drive could be different: and I have the gretest respect for your profession because the main reason to join coffeegeek has been for having opportunity to exchange opinions with people like you.
But again I re-state that from merely a marketing point of view the vast majority of people out there (potential customers) are normal decent people looking for decent product ....., so it is mainly a matter of marketing .....pushing manufacturing choices.
You may be surprised but I have taken the time to go through almost the entire TITAN GRINDER PROJECT, and the message I got was that prosumers out there are crying loud for a decent semi professional grinder, and that has made me start an important upgrading project to give these people (hopefully) the grinder they are looking for and that could eventually prove if I am a good listener or just biased with my misconceptions.....
, but let me not do any marketing, when it is ready (sometimes next year) you will be first one to know.....
""This is also why the conical burrs seem more forgiving of grind adjustment. "" because in simple words the adjusting movement of burr against burr takes much longer
in the conical compared to the flat.... you know what I mean and can translate that into more understandable words .... (I promise I do the same for you in Italian...)
(please answer my post in "fully automatic - how does it taste" ...
Ciao
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cappuccinoboy
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Mon Jul 6, 2009, 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

The Mahlkönig K30 ES is available from a US-based vendor for $2,150.00, and is available in 110v (North American "home," as opposed to "commercial," electric current).  Please note, I have a Mahlkönig K30 Vario, the stepless version of the above grinder, in 110v.

The Elektra Nino is available from the same American vendor for $2,995, but only in 220v (European) current.

The Mazzer Robur is also available from the same vendor for $2,195 -- in a 110v model.  But the Robur 220v model is $2,321.80.

All three of these Italian grinders are more expensive than the Mahlkönig as I am checking prices on the afternoon of 5 July 2009.

Meanwhile, the Dalla Corte DC Standard Espresso Grinder comes in at $3,690.00, the Dalla Corte DCII Gsc Espresso Grinder is available in the US for $5,590.00, and let's not forget the La Marzocco Swift which seems positively cheap in comparsion at only $4,150.00 . . . .

Posted July 5, 2009 link

Jason, I appreciate your effort, but I am not in the market to buy any professional grinder: Still your facts surprised me and made me realize how little informed I am
Cheers, Pietro
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jul 6, 2009, 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

Jon, we are just looking at things like two guys watching the river flow from opposite sides:

Posted July 6, 2009 link

Pietro, that is an accurate (and beautiful) analogy and it helps bridge the gap in language.  And by the way, I am grateful that your English is so much better than my Italian!!


cappuccinoboy Said:

""This is also why the conical burrs seem more forgiving of grind adjustment. "" because in simple words the adjusting movement of burr against burr takes much longer

Posted July 6, 2009 link

Hmmm...maybe the geometry you describe combines with the higher level of fines in the grind (from analysis) to double the advantage (of course this is only supposition on my part)

cappuccinoboy Said:

....but let me not do any marketing, when it is ready (sometimes next year) you will be first one to know.....

Posted July 6, 2009 link

I look forward to hearing more about this!


cappuccinoboy Said:

(please answer my post in "fully automatic - how does it taste"

Posted July 6, 2009 link

My apologies - I must have missed the question...I'll go look now.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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IMAWriter
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IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,882
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Jul 6, 2009, 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

About pods if you were a manufacturer you would be aware that the majority of people out there are just normal decent people who love to enjoy a cup of "decent" espresso without having the fuss of going through rituals in the search for the "perfect" one, and if that "decent" cup turns out to be "good" than they are just happier...
Of course out there  are also a lot (vast minority though) of never satisfied people looking for more .... and willing to spend more : so, it is all about marketing .....

Posted July 6, 2009 link

I do realize most people are decent, but to say ANYONE should SETTLE for "decent" just continues the trend towards ....DECENT, whether it be music (my trade) or coffee. If I provided "decent" songs to artists, I'd have never had my songs cut, same with a "decent" sounding production. I wouldn't be working.
Therefore, supplying "decent" coffee may appear noble, but to me, for relatively the same cost,  you could sell a Presso, which uses FRESH coffee, an Aerobie Press, which is EVERY bit as simple and easy to make, and IMO tastes better than a pod.
By the way, I do manufacture. I manufacture produced music from "scratch", not from pre-manufactured parts.
As a personal aside, I consider myself to be decent, as I'm sure you are.

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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Bitches_Brew
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Bitches_Brew
Joined: 4 Feb 2009
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Location: indiana
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: yes
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Drip: no
Roaster: yes
Posted Mon Jul 6, 2009, 5:12pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

IMAWriter Said:

I do realize most people are decent, but to say ANYONE should SETTLE for "decent" just continues the trend towards ....DECENT, whether it be music (my trade) or coffee. If I provided "decent" songs to artists, I'd have never had my songs cut, same with a "decent" sounding production. I wouldn't be working.
Therefore, supplying "decent" coffee may appear noble, but to me, for relatively the same cost,  you could sell a Presso, which uses FRESH coffee, an Aerobie Press, which is EVERY bit as simple and easy to make, and IMO tastes better than a pod.
By the way, I do manufacture. I manufacture produced music from "scratch", not from pre-manufactured parts.
As a personal aside, I consider myself to be decent, as I'm sure you are.

Posted July 6, 2009 link

remember everybody's idea of "decent" is different. it does not matter if your talking about music or coffee. just because a place or person sells loads of coffee or songs, does not automatically qualify them "decent" or better than decent.

 
"You can write down how to make the perfect cup of coffee. But to make it really good, you have to play something fictional, you have to dress up, you have to think, This is the most important thing."
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IMAWriter
Senior Member
IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,882
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Jul 6, 2009, 8:29pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

Bitches_Brew Said:

remember everybody's idea of "decent" is different. it does not matter if your talking about music or coffee. just because a place or person sells loads of coffee or songs, does not automatically qualify them "decent" or better than decent.

Posted July 6, 2009 link

Yes it does...LOL. Maybe not the product, but if it's not, then the salesperson is a HELL of a good salesperson. Which, by the way is ANOTHER aspect of today's society, flash and dash, and often not a whole lot of substance.
I just responded to a comment from Pietro I thought condescending.
By the way, thanks for your response to my response. That was awfully decent of you.

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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cappuccinoboy
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Tue Jul 7, 2009, 1:09pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

IMAWriter Said:

I do realize most people are decent, but to say ANYONE should SETTLE for "decent" just continues the trend towards ....DECENT, whether it be music (my trade) or coffee. If I provided "decent" songs to artists, I'd have never had my songs cut, same with a "decent" sounding production. I wouldn't be working.
Therefore, supplying "decent" coffee may appear noble, but to me, for relatively the same cost,  you could sell a Presso, which uses FRESH coffee, an Aerobie Press, which is EVERY bit as simple and easy to make, and IMO tastes better than a pod.
By the way, I do manufacture. I manufacture produced music from "scratch", not from pre-manufactured parts.
As a personal aside, I consider myself to be decent, as I'm sure you are.

Posted July 6, 2009 link

Ima boy, allow me this since it looks that I could be your father, let me tell you of my biggest regret : I like good music but I cannot sing since I am out of tune like a broken bell : if I could sing I'd be singing all day long.... or maybe not because I would not miss it at all, and then I would be singing "only" when.....
decent refers to people who can live with other people, respect their feelings and do not feel any superior . It is not said in a denigratory way and it is no "lesser" in any way; they carry on their lives enjoying the little pleasures that life so generously offers, they feel happy with little, they marry for life ....(but a good divorce is better than a bad marriage) : put into marketing means that if they like the coffee they are drinking they do not see any reason to try different, still they may one day decide to change, in life we have the luck to make personal choices, I repeat "personal", and that put in marketing means making available a number of products that could be appealing (or more appealing) to people (for whatever reason, but here I like to recall an earlier quotation about the best advertising ever produced : coffee is a pleasure, if it is no good where is the pleasure ???)
Now some guy says that big companies out there are in business just for the profit, and this may be true, but if they do not please their customers, they are bound to lose them to competition, so it is not true that their primary goal is profit, actually their primary goal is to satisfy customers (who generate profit), and that they can only do supplying some quality:
You do produce music from scratch but that can only be played with manufactured instruments, because without instruments your music would be worthless : only Behetoven beeing deaf could still write and enjoy music.
I love your Olympia Cremina ......
Ciao
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cappuccinoboy
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 798
Location: MILANO
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully...
Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Tue Jul 7, 2009, 2:33pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

JonR10 Said:

Pietro, that is an accurate (and beautiful) analogy and it helps bridge the gap in language.  And by the way, I am grateful that your English is so much better than my Italian!!

Hmmm...maybe the geometry you describe combines with the higher level of fines in the grind (from analysis) to double the advantage (of course this is only supposition on my part)

I look forward to hearing more about this!

My apologies - I must have missed the question...I'll go look now.

Posted July 6, 2009 link

You know Jon, the two guys watching the river flow from opposite sides instead of fighting each other on left-right, could agree to a standard, say phisics ??, and agree that the river flows east or west......
If my Italian wasn't any better than yours (not exactly what you said....) I would not risk offering to help.....
Ciao, Pietro
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IMAWriter
Senior Member
IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,882
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Tue Jul 7, 2009, 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

cappuccinoboy Said:

You do produce music from scratch but that can only be played with manufactured instruments, because without instruments your music would be worthless : only Behetoven beeing deaf could still write and enjoy music.

Ciao

Posted July 7, 2009 link

Pietro, not exactly true. There are virtuoso VOCAL only groups and ensembles...Kings Chorus, even Barbershop quartets that make wondrous music without the aid of a "manufactured" instrument.
I sang in one.
God's greatest musical instrument is the human voice.

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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davethebrewguy
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davethebrewguy
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1,228
Location: The Brewery
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Fiorenzato Bricoletta,...
Grinder: Compak K-6, Baratza Maestro...
Drip: Saeco Renaissance
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Jul 7, 2009, 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Technically and Mechanically  - Conical vs Flat Burrs
 

I have a hard time with the idea that sales volume and quality are even remotely related.  Is Bud Light really the best beer in the world or could a century and change of very aggressive business practices and excellent marketing help create success for a product that is not really any different from it's closest rivals. In most beer forums, Bud Light et al are looked down upon with contempt as tasteless, fizzy, yellow water. These beers get as much respect as a super-auto steam-toy pod machine with a built-in blade grinder. In reality, it is very difficult to brew a beer with this little taste and body because even the slightest flaw is readily noticeable, these beers probably deserve a lot more respect than they are given. These beers also sell very well, last I heard A-B sold more beer than the rest of the brewers on the planet combined, so there is a pretty good chance that plenty of decent people consume this product.
So why is there no love on the beer forums? The forums are not populated with average (decent) beer drinkers, most posters have had a Bud Light but still want to experience new things and taste new flavors. These consumers have set their sights a little "higher" than the masses and may take their BudMilCoors(*) bashing a bit far sometimes but most of them are still decent people.
It is no different with coffee. No matter how carefully it is packed and shipped, a pod will never reach the consumer as fresh as a "ground on the spot, home roasted" bean and the plastic grew groups in most super-autos will never hold/conduct heat in the same way as a hefty brass portafilter. Cappuccinoboy implies that there is something "less than decent" about wanting something better than that which make so many others happy and I'm a little offended by the notion. The fact that Cappucinoboy makes 3 or 4 posts at a time without saying anything new doesn't help things.
C-boy, your posts seem to have a common theme of supporting products that you are involved with in a business venture, this makes me skeptical of anything you post on the matter. I am of the opinion that you are here to attempt push your products and I think you may be targeting the wrong audience.

Back On-Topic:
IMH(layman's)O, aren't there a number of other factors that might contribute to the merits of one burr type over another? As an example, I have to think that axial play at the drive shaft would have a greater effect on a conical burr than on a flat burr. This might explain why conicals are catching on more at the high end of the range (where tolerances are tighter) and at the bottom of the range (where play in the grind adjustment is more of an issue than play in a driveshaft), while the mid-range is still predominantly made up of grinders with flat burrs. If the engineers here think I'm way off base, I'd welcome any enlightenment you have to offer.

(*) BudMillCoors is not limited to the 3 breweries from which the "name" is derived, it includes the products of Molson, Corona, Heiniken, Peroni, Fosters and dozens of others from every region that are made from very similar recipes, lagers that usually include corn or rice.
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