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Years not coming, simply not know where to start
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Discussions > Espresso > General > Years not...  
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 12:12am
Subject: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

How is our work about espresso?
Is there everyone going to cupping?

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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z0mbie
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z0mbie
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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 3:31am
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

Espresso is like work.  The more you do it the easier it gets.

Cupping is like sex education. It's not required but if you don't know what to expect from you just might find yourself in a big mess.
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NobbyR
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Joined: 10 Jul 2011
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Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 4:04am
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

Espresso is a hobby and a passion to me. I enjoy a great cup of espresso pretty much like I enjoy a good wine or gourmet food or single malt scotch or a Cuban cigar, for example.

I don't think you need cupping in order to tell if a cup of coffee tastes good to you or not, but it helps to describe that complex sensation we call flavor.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,348
Location: Beijing
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 6:30am
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

I noticed that you have the grinder of "Eureka Mignon Istantaneo".  I love it.  It is the most recommended by me now in China.

By the way, do you have the cafe in Germany where Mr. Worldman visited many years ago?

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 12:24pm
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

Hi Peter,

Almost all the espresso and brewed coffee we drink (or supply to others) is the product of our own roasting.  So, we do a fair bit of cupping for sampling, bean defects, wet-blending, and other roasting purposes.  But if I understand you, that's not really what you're asking.

Because it takes me at least 300g of greens to tell if the bean is something I really want to use, and because there are just so many greens on the market at one time, it's too expensive and impractical to sample everything which interests me.  So I end up relying on trusted retailers' descriptions -- perhaps too heavily.

If we drank less of our own and more of others', we'd do more cupping in the sense of tastings. Too bad, because that's not only valuable in terms of choosing which coffees to buy but a way of keeping a finger on the pulse of what other roasters are doing.  And now that I think about it, participating in group tastings at coffee shops is a lot of fun on its own.  

Rich
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pstam
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pstam
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Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
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Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 10:12pm
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Hi Peter,

Almost all the espresso and brewed coffee we drink (or supply to others) is the product of our own roasting.  So, we do a fair bit of cupping for sampling, bean defects, wet-blending, and other roasting purposes.  But if I understand you, that's not really what you're asking.

Because it takes me at least 300g of greens to tell if the bean is something I really want to use, and because there are just so many greens on the market at one time, it's too expensive and impractical to sample everything which interests me.  So I end up relying on trusted retailers' descriptions -- perhaps too heavily.

If we drank less of our own and more of others', we'd do more cupping in the sense of tastings. Too bad, because that's not only valuable in terms of choosing which coffees to buy but a way of keeping a finger on the pulse of what other roasters are doing.  And now that I think about it, participating in group tastings at coffee shops is a lot of fun on its own.  

Rich

Posted February 13, 2014 link


In my understanding, to choose from different green beans, one has to do cupping all the time.  Like Italian roasters, they cup a lot every years among so many samples from different plantation regions.

For drip coffee processing, in which I mean the roast, maybe blend or so, one has to check the resulting tastes of the beans by cupping, then to adjust the roasting and other processes for the best final results.

If limited to the work of a barista, one do not cup.  At least, in our working procedure, we almost only try to find bad tastes so as to avoid it or them.  We do not try to find any good tastes it may have.  This is left to the customers to do.


BTW, about cupping, how do you do it for drip coffee and espresso?
Or in other words, how do you describe the tastes of a cup of espresso?  Do you find wine sourness, nuts flavor, fruits flavor from it or not?
Basically, do you find "coffee tastes", or just bitter and sour and sweet and so on, not bitterness at all.

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,044
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Mon Feb 17, 2014, 5:06am
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

pstam Said:

By the way, do you have the cafe in Germany where Mr. Worldman visited many years ago?

Posted February 13, 2014 link

???

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,348
Location: Beijing
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Mon Feb 17, 2014, 7:44am
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

I remember that many years ago, Worldman, someone here, went to Germany for his business and saying that the espresso in Germany was too bad.  Then some one here told him to visit his cafe in a city in Germany.  After his visit, he said that the espresso there was much better.

Worldman is still here in this forum, but retired from his work many years ago.

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,254
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:39am
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

Peter,

If I understand you correctly, we agree on most things.

BTW, about cupping, how do you do it for drip coffee and espresso?

If I'm developing a profile, the first cuppings are SCAA protocol.  I'm familiar with a couple of other styles, including COE, but am most comfortable with SCAA because I use SCAA forms and the SCAA flavor wheel; and I use those because (a) I took a course; and (b) I have a bunch of forms printed and ready to go.    

After cupping, I only roast to whatever finish level along the C through FC+ continuum cupped best.  If that finish happens to work well for for aeropress, drip, French press, but not espresso, or some other combination, I don't spend time trying to develop a profile with a different finish level.  I find that the border between C+ and FC is the most versatile and "best" finish for a great many beans, I almost always sample C+, C+/FC and FC; but seldom sample C or FC+.  

At some point, usually after I'm happy with all of the profile's intervals, I stop "cupping" roaster-style, and start "tasting."  That is, instead of pouring hot water over medium-coarse grinds in a cup and doing the SCAA thing, I brew the coffee drip, press and espresso, and then taste it from a cup -- either by the spoonful, if I'm trying to draw very fine distinctions; or in the ordinary way, by sipping.  Depending on how that goes, I may or may not tweak the profile; may or may not use the bean for particular types of brewing.

This is a continuous process for me, even with beans or blends we know well.  My wife and I discuss our coffee every morning.   She has a keen palate, uses non-technical but very descriptive language, and her opinions are extremely helpful.  

Or in other words, how do you describe the tastes of a cup of espresso?  Do you find wine sourness, nuts flavor, fruits flavor from it or not?

Not so much "wine sourness" but otherwise, all the qualities named on the SCAA flavor wheel as well as some very personal descriptions.  For instance, we have a bean, Panama Emporium Estate, which strongly reminds me of a Japanese soft-drink sold here, CalPico (aka Calpis) Lychee; but which the supplier and a fellow cupper described as "bubblegum."
 

Basically, do you find "coffee tastes", or just bitter and sour and sweet and so on, not bitterness at all.

I'm not sure I understand the question.  We find a wide variety of characteristics in coffee.  Their numbers and particular natures depend on the individual bean or blend.  We also find that bitterness and sourness in "specialty coffees" are artifacts of roasting or brewing than inherent qualities of the bean.

Rich
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,044
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Feb 18, 2014, 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Years not coming, simply not know where to start
 

pstam Said:

I remember that many years ago, Worldman, someone here, went to Germany for his business and saying that the espresso in Germany was too bad.  Then some one here told him to visit his cafe in a city in Germany.  After his visit, he said that the espresso there was much better.

Worldman is still here in this forum, but retired from his work many years ago.

Posted February 17, 2014 link

There are plenty of coffee shops and espresso bars in Germany, including Starbuck's and the likes. Therefore, espresso quality differs largely. You have to know where to go to in order to get a decent cup. One of the problems is that there are not enough trained baristas who really know their trade, so that even bars with excellent equipment sometimes serve gushers, for example.

If you're talking about Oliver Skafi's (a.k.a. coffeegod)

Kaffee Lounge²
Bockenheimer Landstraße 124
D-60325 Frankfurt

it's still there.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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