Laowai Senior Member Joined: 29 Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Location: Beijing, China Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Eupa TSK 1819A Grinder: Feima 600N
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 2:30am Subject: Grinding too fine? Over-tamping? Underdosing? Help
Trying to figure out where this is going wrong. I have a Feima 600N grinder and what is essentially a Cuisinart EM-100 (OEM badged Eupa TSK-1819A). I have gotten an unpressurized basket and removed the stupid plastic dohicky that was in the bottom of the portafilter and sealed off that middle screw-hole with a gasket. Compared to the way it came stock, it's already MUCH better. Pucks come out dry or at least mostly dry and pop out instead of being scraped out, there is actual crema instead of froth and short of going naked, the portafilter is just about as good as it's gonna get.
For the grinder, I took it apart and removed part of the spring for the pin, so it is fully variable, while it still gives a slightly audible click for the settings. I also reset the dial so the initial click is one click away from horrible grinding noises from the internals... giving a better full range of settings. The dial goes from 1-8 but there are half-settings at either end, so it really goes from 0.5 to 8.5. With this as a reference, here's what's going on:
If I dial it to about a 2, I get a somewhat fast shot, about 20 seconds. Starts out with some striping, then goes blond. If I dial in a 1.5 or lower, I get a painfully slow extraction, we're talking in the 2-3 minute range here. Counting the pitch black drops as they come down. Oddly, it's not gritty, it's just thick enough to chew. Tamping hard or light seems to make no difference apart from the puck being solid or soup.
I'm using fresh coffee that was roasted about 4 days ago and actually underdosing by a few grams probably due to the grounds coming out of the 600N light and fluffy. And yes, I know, I should get my own roaster, but the coffee store roasts and delivers to the door same day essentially for free. :)
All that being said, I am a total noobie to this and this was about the upper range of what was possible (without being killed by the wife), and even then it took some doing to get away dropping $150 as a replacement setup for a (finally dead) $10 dripper. There's a sorta weird pricing scheme here, wherein I can get a N600 for $40 and a mid-range machine for $110. Getting into anything that would be considered "high range" with more bells and whistles, and it jumps up to a good $1600+, and if I'm not dead for that, I'm dead for taking over the kitchen. :)
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,613 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 2:58am Subject: Re: Grinding too fine? Over-tamping? Underdosing? Help
Welcome to CoffeeGeek, Dave, and congratulations on your set-up!
Provided that you dose, distribute and tamp your ground coffee really consistently, extraction time is solely regulated by dialing in the grinder, i.e. finding the right setting when you get about 25 ml of espresso for a single shot (or 50 ml for a doppio) in roughly 25 seconds. Sometimes a slight change can make the difference. The way you describe your situation, the correct grinder setting is somewhere in between 2 and 1.5 on the scale of your grinder. If you cannot set the grinder correctly, because your grinder is stepped and you get stuck betwixt and between two steps, you'll have to compensate by adjusting the dose accordingly. That is to say, set the grinder on 1.5 and lower the dose or set it on 2 and boost the dose by 0.1 g until you get the best possible extraction. Most people will prefer to updose. Since you claim to be underdosing already, I think you should do the same.
Tamping is the least important factor in all of this. Just do it with the same pressure each and every time. As long as you have access to freshly roasted beans, which seems to be the case, you don't need to start home roasting. That's a whole new craft. Before you think about that, you should get a grip on handling your espresso machine.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Laowai Senior Member Joined: 29 Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Location: Beijing, China Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Eupa TSK 1819A Grinder: Feima 600N
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 4:28am Subject: Re: Grinding too fine? Over-tamping? Underdosing? Help
NobbyR Said:
Welcome to CoffeeGeek, Dave, and congratulations on your set-up!
Provided that you dose, distribute and tamp your ground coffee really consistently, extraction time is solely regulated by dialing in the grinder, i.e. finding the right setting when you get about 25 ml of espresso for a single shot (or 50 ml for a doppio) in roughly 25 seconds. Sometimes a slight change can make the difference. The way you describe your situation, the correct grinder setting is somewhere in between 2 and 1.5 on the scale of your grinder. If you cannot set the grinder correctly, because your grinder is stepped and you get stuck betwixt and between two steps, you'll have to compensate by adjusting the dose accordingly. That is to say, set the grinder on 1.5 and lower the dose or set it on 2 and boost the dose by 0.1 g until you get the best possible extraction. Most people will prefer to updose. Since you claim to be underdosing already, I think you should do the same.
Tamping is the least important factor in all of this. Just do it with the same pressure each and every time. As long as you have access to freshly roasted beans, which seems to be the case, you don't need to start home roasting. That's a whole new craft. Before you think about that, you should get a grip on handling your espresso machine.
Well, on the plus side, it's something that seems to be within my control, and it's also nice to know that the machine is capable of grinding too fine for espresso. The pucks being spat out have been very consistent so far. No channeling, nice flat topped. The grinder is auger-based and despite having a clicky dial, it can basically be ignored and set to anything in-between. Not bad at all for $40. Dis one
I do wonder though, does the size of dose, and consequently the amount of headroom have an effect that allows for finer grounds?
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,613 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 4:51am Subject: Re: Grinding too fine? Over-tamping? Underdosing? Help
Well, basically the puck should not touch the shower screen, in order to allow an undisturbed flow of water, so there should not be an imprint of it on the used puck, except for the screw or nut that secures the shower screen on some machines. If there's a mark, the filter basket was too full. Apart from that, there's a negative correlation between dose and required fineness, i.e. the higher the dose the coarser the grounds can be and vice versa.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,320 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:26am Subject: Re: Grinding too fine? Over-tamping? Underdosing? Help
A scale makes all the difference in getting consistent pulls when you are first starting out. I still use one but it is but it is built into my grinder now. I don't weigh the shot glass any more but if I am dialing in a new bean I might do that again.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
Laowai Senior Member Joined: 29 Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Location: Beijing, China Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Eupa TSK 1819A Grinder: Feima 600N
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 9:12pm Subject: Re: Grinding too fine? Over-tamping? Underdosing? Help
Coffeenoobie Said:
A scale makes all the difference in getting consistent pulls when you are first starting out. I still use one but it is but it is built into my grinder now. I don't weigh the shot glass any more but if I am dialing in a new bean I might do that again.
Yep, we have a cheap scale that does not go out to decimals, but it's not the worst thing.... next thing on the list to replace.
I like how my pucks are coming out now. My underdosing was from failing to take into account the fluffiness of the grounds as they came out. Now I'm grinding into a paper cup, stirring and have a bottomless cup that fits right into the basket to act as a funnel. Only after a lot of stirring around does a full 16g even come close to fitting, and on the finer grinds, it maxes out around 14g. Turns out my previous attempts were essentially trying to pull a double out of 7~8g and the pucks were waaaay too small. On my current bean of choice, it's demanding around a 2~2.5 setting on the machine and the spent pucks are now generally rather dry with no channeling, ridges and seem to be rather uniform... no obvious layered separation going on.
Thanks everyone for the tips :)
edit: woohoo, got it dialed in perfectly for this damned bean. 16g @ 2.35~2.4. Lotsa crema, great flow, nice striping going on. Grinder takes 10.5 seconds and the result is absolute heaven. On a non-adjusted stock 600N, this is about 1.85~1.9.
Could a better grinder do better? Probably. A better machine? Most definitely. But what I'm making now beats the hell out of the local cafes. It's not bitter or sour and needs no sugar to compensate. Not bad at all for a measly $150. Machine pays for itself after the first 500g bag of beans (which is just about gone now).
Anyone else based in Beijing looking for a good setup, I highly recommend the seller http://521coffee.taobao.com/ on taobao.
edit 2: just noticed that the board doesn't like chinese characters
Definitely. Whenever you think about upgrading, think about upgrading your grinder first unless you already have a high-end commercial grinder. The influence of the grinder on espresso quality is much bigger than the machine.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 