Zin1953 Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 1,695 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: no, Press Pot Drip: Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Jul 25, 2009, 7:33am Subject: Re: Starbucks is a Changing .. Can the Gourmet Coffee Shop Survive ?
Chris,
I find myself periodically dropping in Starbucks out of "necessity," in that there may be nothing else around -- I might be on the interstate between major cities, and Starbucks is the only thing available at the next off-ramp; I might be in an airport; etc. And I completely agree with you about the Pike's Place -- much better than their typically over-roasted "char."
But there is a problem: in buying some Pike's Place beans, I consistently find them stale and undrinkable.
Zin1953 Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 1,695 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: no, Press Pot Drip: Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Jul 25, 2009, 12:51pm Subject: Re: Starbucks is a Changing .. Can the Gourmet Coffee Shop Survive ?
a) Two weeks to pushing it in just about all cases, and certainly past it in most.
b) Remember all the hoopla about Starbucks going to "bagged on dating" for its Pike's Place Roast, and what a breakthrough that was supposed to be??? Yeah, any time I got a bag, it was 2-4 weeks old . . .
Posted Sat Jul 25, 2009, 1:08pm Subject: Re: Starbucks is a Changing .. Can the Gourmet Coffee Shop Survive ?
I know two weeks is pushing it... but two weeks is better than two months
Also the pre scooped and bagged pike arent necessarily going to be fresher its the bag opened that morning and used for the brewed coffee that will be a little fresher..... but only a little
Is the beer that was opened and put back in the fridge better two days or five days afterward? Yeah, it makes no difference.
Babbie's Rule of Fifteens: Use Greens within Fifteen Months Use Roasted Coffee with in Fifteen Days Use Ground Coffee within Fifteen Minutes Use Extracted coffee within Fifteen Seconds.
There are exceptions, but almost all coffees will be unusable for espresso after a fortnight. They will, at very best, not suck a lot. I expect more from a coffee if I'm gonna spend eight bucks on twelve ounces than, 'That didn't really suck too much'. I can get coffees that only suck a little at Trader Joe's for six bucks a pound.
What I'm looking for in a bean is one that doesn't suck. No sign of suck whatsoever. On that note, if you contact your local Black Apron, it is possible to get some of the specialty blends or SO's right after they get roasted. Here in Tucson, we're two days shipping from the roaster in 'Vegas (Henderson?) and if I want to try something that the Siren has purchase all or nearly all of, I can get some from them, although it will still be over-roasted a bit.
sherpakid Senior Member Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 46 Location: Brooklyn, NY Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: FrancisFrancis X5 Grinder: Solis Vac Pot: none Drip: Chemex Roaster: FreshRoast 8 plus
Posted Mon Jul 27, 2009, 7:05am Subject: Re: Starbucks is a Changing .. Can the Gourmet Coffee Shop Survive ?
My question is this? Are they going to use this as a model to open a chain of third wave stores and start acquiring the premium lots of coffee to support their new chains? If so, are we going to start seeing the consolidation of current independent artisinal roasters pooling their resources as a response to compete? My fear is that my favorite roasters will be competing against $bucks unlimited purchasing power as they start to gobble up all the premium greens. I don't know if they'll keep serving the same old and this is just a new rebranding of the same old or whether they'll start encroaching on the "good stuff".
Psyd Senior Member Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 1,178 Location: MON AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Sylvia and Astoria Argenta... Grinder: Rocky and Astoria (Mazzer)...
Posted Mon Jul 27, 2009, 3:10pm Subject: Re: Starbucks is a Changing .. Can the Gourmet Coffee Shop Survive ?
sherpakid Said:
My question is this? Are they going to use this as a model to open a chain of third wave stores and start acquiring the premium lots of coffee to support their new chains?
This would require them to focus on quality and performance instead of profit and stock performance. As a corporate entity who's hands are tied by the dictate that it make profit for the shareholders, I can't see how it will be able to do that. 'Profit first' isn't just something that we tease the Green Monster with, it's her own siren calling her to the rocks.
Corporate bylaws are written in that all of the xxO's and the BOD are directed to act in the best interest of the corporation and it's shareholders. The metric by which that 'best interest' is measured has always been interpreted, legally as well as colloquially, by the stock price. Profits. Having no ability to use any other metric, if the BOD can't indicate to the stockholders that their actions will result in higher return on investment next quarter, they can be relieved of their responsibilities for taking such an action, according to the bylaws of every publicly traded corporation in the country, to the best of my knowledge.
I don't see them as a third wave threat. They no longer have the 'attachment's' necessary for that move. They've effectively been neutered by their own success.
Posted Mon Jul 27, 2009, 10:03pm Subject: Re: Starbucks is a Changing .. Can the Gourmet Coffee Shop Survive ?
Well said psyd,
True third wave cafes are not commercially viable on the scale that *$ operates
The reason many of us on this site make our coffee at home is because we can't find a shop that makes it as well. We may live in a town with a hundred "specialty" coffee shops but still end up making our own espresso.
The reason we celebrate Vivace, Intelligentsia, Stumptown, Parallel 49 etc in because they are exceptional.
The reason behind both of these facts...
99% of *$ customers don't care about better quality beans. 99% of *$ customers wouldn't even notice.
And even in these specialty shops we celebrate alot of the customers arent ording espresso, they are ording a much higher qualty version of the hot milkshakes *$ made its millions off of.
The truly great thrid wave shops operate in a small niche market. A market that I would assume to be so miniscule that frankly it surprises me that *$ wants a piece of it. I would assume that at this point McDonalds/Tim Hortons entry in espresso drinks would be a far larger concern.
Any move made to tranform *$ into a third wave shop will be by and large smoke and mirrors out of necessity. With this much loss sustained by *$ lately it can't go spending large sums of money to truly change the way it does business. A few renovations and the purchase of a few lms(which cost ALOT LESS than the new superautos *$ is installing) is a drop in the pond and frankly a cheap experiment.
Over the years *$ has tried their hand at selling premium lots of coffee(or coffee that customers were lead to believe were premium) Columbia Narino El Tambo, Zambia Terranova Estate, Lomas Al Rio, Sumatra Siborong Borong, Ethiopia Harrar Gemadro Estate etc all great coffees, all discarded enmass when after 6 months in store all of 1-2 lbs had been sold. The "Black-Apron Exclusives" program was scrapped and with it the concept of mass market premium coffees at *$.
This new store is opening not ONE coffee that cant be found at another *$ and in my opinion its not likely to get any. We dont need to worry.
They've adopted the look of a neighboring bar, and the 'works' of a neighboring coffee community. The truly unique thing about the real independent shop is their ingenuity, their their individuality, and their tenacity.
What is it? "The coffee business is based on sincerity. Once you learn to fake that, your in."
I don't see this as moving away from coffee at all. I see this as a lumbering beast of a corporation reading the tea leaves, so to speak, and trying to maintain market share by capitalizing on the "local coffee shop" mystique and culture. This is still Starbucks coffee, but in sheep's clothing.
This may actually work. However, given that the coffee is unlikely to improve, a name is a name is a name.
T-Rick
BOOKMAN: "You buy a jar of Folger's Crystals, you put it in the cupboard, you forget about it. Then later on when you need it, it's there. It lasts forever. It's freeze-dried. Freeze-dried Crystals."
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