arpi Junior Member Joined: 8 Oct 2008 Posts: 106 Location: Baltimore Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Expobar on its way. Breville... Grinder: Ascaso I-Mini Roaster: Fresh Roast Plus 8
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2008, 11:29am Subject: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
With so many beans on the market, I don't know how to tell when I have arrived to paradise or got my best shot yet. If you find a good flavor with a consitent method, do you keep looking or do you settle for life doing the same coffee/espresso? I like to know hos to do everything from scratch and I don't like to buy secret blends someone else. It could be that you spend your whole life tasting the same coffee and behind the closet you had beans to make a wowmasterblaster.
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2008, 3:02pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
arpi Said:
With so many beans on the market, I don't know how to tell when I have arrived to paradise or got my best shot yet. If you find a good flavor with a consitent method, do you keep looking or do you settle for life doing the same coffee/espresso?
There's only subjective answers to that. To go from good most of the time to really good all the time is a complicated issue. We can divide it into three parts:
Equipment - You are at a bit of a disadvantage here. The biggest problem is the lack of consistency from this class of small, single boiler (or thermoblock) espresso machines. A frined just bought that same machine, so in the next month or two I hope to be able to get over to see how capable it really is (or isn't). Your conical burr, stepless grinder was a good choice, although I have not used the Acaso to be able to judge any further than that.
Process- Your ability to dose, distribute and tamp the same way every time is critical. Without that ability, there is no way to tell how any other changes that are possible affect the flavor. In your case that would be the grind for the most part.
Beans- While you can't get espresso from a sow's ear, what the beans have to offer can only be realized when the other two factors are in line- the equipment and the process. You might want to try ordering some fresh roasted coffee from a quality source to compare to what you are roasting at home.
If you ever get to a coffee shop that makes excellent espresso, the kind that stays n your memory for years after tasting it, you better have a big checkbook handy. Once you taste that level of espresso there's no going back... I just finished six straight weeks without a bad shot at home, from my own roast and blend, but it took a lot of effort, research, patience, practice, and $$ to get there. In other words, be careful what you wish for! ;-)
arpi Junior Member Joined: 8 Oct 2008 Posts: 106 Location: Baltimore Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Expobar on its way. Breville... Grinder: Ascaso I-Mini Roaster: Fresh Roast Plus 8
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2008, 4:02pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
TX. I know what you mean about the equipment. But I have been around and I have fallen for many hobies and then forget about then. Whereever I go, money will buy the elitist equipment and that will put you in a semiproffesional level. But interests fade in life (they age). And I am not sure if I want to blow two grand for something that later will not matter anymore. I've been through many hobies already. This is is my next. Behind the equipment there is a hand that controls it. And with knowledge, cheap equipment can result in pleasant expiriences. If with time I become more adictive to coffe I'll upgrade. But then, I may find a lady with a $1 pot and a stove that gets better results. What is good coffee/espresso? In about three weeks or so I've already gone far from nowhere to here. But there is no limit and no way to tell you have arrive at some point beacuse the limit always moves farther the farther you go. The point of view changes just like a carrot in front of the nose. Howlong and $$$ did it take to get where you are now? TX
rabbit Junior Member Joined: 3 Sep 2008 Posts: 39 Location: maine Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2008, 7:01pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
equipment you kind of settle on...do you want an espresso machine in your house? do you drip coffee or french press? i'm a french press head.....i latte and espresso at the local roaster one day a week....the sky is no limit on hobbies....like stereo equipment...maybe your at a state were cost is not a problem...and for coffee beans read the discriptions of the beans, you'll find ones that you think will suit you taste...there are 100's of beans to pick from....coffee is the second biggest commodatiy the frist is crude oil....coffee is huge... search online lots of places roast the coffee after you order it...i go thought six pounds a month...coffee means a lot to me...passion
arpi Junior Member Joined: 8 Oct 2008 Posts: 106 Location: Baltimore Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Expobar on its way. Breville... Grinder: Ascaso I-Mini Roaster: Fresh Roast Plus 8
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2008, 3:11pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
Well, in the learning curve of making espresso there is a lot of room for upgrading so as to always improve the shot. I read in this forum of people with exprensive equipment and considering to get newer and better stuff. I don't have anything against that. I would love to do the same. I am just trying to understand the motivations. It seems that satisfaction only lasts a little. What happens at the top? Do you look for a new begining doing something else? Does the interest dispears and then the equipment becomes uninteresting and unatractive? Do people redo thensemvels?
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2008, 7:13pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
arpi Said:
I read in this forum of people with exprensive equipment and considering to get newer and better stuff. I don't have anything against that. I would love to do the same. I am just trying to understand the motivations.
I am not an expert in this area, but with nearly 8 years of home roasting and home espresso brewing I can offer some insight based on my experience. Most (if I dare user that adjective) home espresso folks start out with a beginner's machine. Often that is a single boiler machine that necessitates switching modes between brewing and steaming, or maybe even a thermoblock machine or a steam powered machine. Often that is paired with a very basic grinder. I started with Silvia and Rocky, and that lasted 6.5 years.
Through some fortunate circumstances and some hard work, I ended up with a VBM Domobar Super 17 months ago and a Mazzer Kony about 6 months ago. The difference is night and day. On its best day I could get maybe two pulls in a row of very good espresso from the Silvia. The new setup has currently gone over 6 weeks, at least two doubles a day, and every oull was at least as good as some of the better shots I got from the Silvia. The only pull that could be considered sub-par in that stretch was thins morning when I forgot to put a cup under the spouts and the best part of the pull went into the drip tray.
So the question becomes, do you consider the pairing of the Rancilio Silvia espresso machine and the Rancilio Rocky grinder as expensive equipment? There are folks who spend more than that on a family dinner, and other who drive cars which cost less. So "expensive" is a relative thing. I have plenty of friends who think spending more than about $50 on a coffee grinder is crazy. All I can say is that the upgrade I made took my espresso to new heights and the setup is worth every penny if you are serious about espresso.
xdavez Senior Member Joined: 21 Nov 2007 Posts: 612 Location: USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II Grinder: Mahlkoenig K 30es, Mazzer... Vac Pot: none Drip: Technivorm
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2008, 7:04am Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
I don't know where you live, but you could seek out a coffee joint that makes great espresso.
GO there and sample the product. Hang around -- try different places. only by testing reeeally GOOD espresso will you ever know.
NO amount of blather on the web can simulate an expertly made cup!
Most major cities have one or more -- but NOT many -- GREAT espresso coffee places. seek them out. or get to trade shows, coffeefest happens many times a year.
somebody's list of what THEY bought or got for free is worthless.
I can say that very DECENT espresso can come from a $600 combo of grinder and machine. (new prices)
arpi Junior Member Joined: 8 Oct 2008 Posts: 106 Location: Baltimore Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Expobar on its way. Breville... Grinder: Ascaso I-Mini Roaster: Fresh Roast Plus 8
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2008, 3:30pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
I went and try a placed called 'barista' and I have doubts. I think mine tastes better. Theirs was strong flavor acid hard to swallow. I could use that for draining the plumbing. Mine doesn't come that acid unless I grind very fine and whatever. Anyway, looking on the net I read that this guy bought a $5000 espresso because the $2000 he had was not reliable :( He ended up buying La Marzocco GS/3. I can put the link if you want me to, but that exemplifies my point that there is no limit to image of the carrot. It is like buying a hyundai and ending up with a lamborgini.
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2008, 7:14pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
arpi Said:
I went and try a placed called 'barista' and I have doubts. I think mine tastes better. Theirs was strong flavor acid hard to swallow. I could use that for draining the plumbing. Mine doesn't come that acid unless I grind very fine and whatever.
Grinding too fine usually increases the bitterness. Some coffees do have high acidity, and that is usually a sour taste. I have had one espresso that was highly acidic, but it was actually quite nice. It was the one exception to my rule of not liking high acid coffees.
Anyway, looking on the net I read that this guy bought a $5000 espresso because the $2000 he had was not reliable :( He ended up buying La Marzocco GS/3. I can put the link if you want me to, but that exemplifies my point that there is no limit to image of the carrot. It is like buying a hyundai and ending up with a lamborgini.
Sure there is a limit, but each person chooses the length of their pole holding their carrot. When folks heard that I had spent nearly $300 on a coffee grinder (the Rocky) back in 2000 they could not understand how a grinder could possibly cost that much. If they knew what my Mazzer Kony sells for, they would have me committed! How do I afford that "Lambo" of a grinder? I drive an 18 year old Volvo!
ILUVDABEAN Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 286 Location: California Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic Grinder: Gaggia MDF/K-A Pro Series Drip: Capresso MT 500 Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2008, 9:08pm Subject: Re: to keep searching or to settle for the best, that is the question
Some people seem more into the pursuit of the perfect shot than the enjoyment of the bean itself. Yes there is a difference in better equipment when compared to average stuff. Is there a formula you can follow to make perfect god shots everytime with perfect equipment? Maybe ! Maybe not! Lets say you had all the money in the world to buy the best beans,the very best equipment and time to just sit around and explore,does that mean youde produce the best expresso all the time? I think you kind of have to enjoy the ride and the journey. My idea of finding out what good espresso is about would be to go to Italy and rent a little small car,throw a sleeping bag in the back and go drive through northern Italy and explore coffee making first hand in little small family shops. How many people for example have view cameras but will never be Ansel Adams? Is it all machine,techique and good coffee or is there an intangible element made up of a passion for coffee? I say enjoy the journey,buy the best equipment you can,get into roasting,drink all kinds of espressos from the great houses,and then forget about settleing for anything..or even searching for god shots all the time. It isnt a static road with an end or goal as much as it is an everday living experience with changes from day to day and week to week. If there was a program or method you could always follow to make god shots 100 percent of the time it would be way to easy,way to boring and would kill a certain mystery and beauty to this whole espresso experience not alone the beauty of the bean itself. Hope this makes sense cause I had a brutal day at work and am tired as I write this..but I've been pondering your post for a few days before I responded.
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