Posted Wed Jul 16, 2008, 9:52am Subject: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
Would there be any difference, when making an Iced Espresso or Americano, between: 1. poring the Espresso over ice and then adding water. Or, 2. First preparing an Americano by combining Espresso and liquid water before poring it over ice?
Some may have heard of the recent blogging exchange that spun out-of-control between Murky Coffee and a customer who wanted an Iced Espresso [See Click Here (www.andiamnotlying.com) ]. Murky refuses to serve Iced Espresso, claiming that it compromises the quality, while Iced Americano is fine.
Murky’s owner claims that: "Espresso is a fairly volatile thing, and when it hits ice, it seems to go through a chemical change that we can't fully explain (and I haven't seen a good explanation within our industry quite yet). It does appear to have something to do with ascorbic acid, but when we make our iced americanos (espresso + water + ice), we pour the shots into room-temperature water before adding the ice. Believe it or not, it does make a difference. Pouring espresso over ice creates unpleasantly acrid flavors."
In another topic here about the temperature of water to add to an Americano, there were some concerns that it could be too hot, but no mention of it being too cold.
While Espresso is delicate, and qualities of the Crema are lost when you mix it with anything or just let it sit for a few minutes, it’s hard to imagine that any "shock" occurs from the rapid cooling of Espresso directly on ice that doesn’t also occur from cooling it a little more slowly first with water. This sounds like just a pretentious rationalization for a policy of not serving Iced Espresso to prevent customers from making it into "ghetto" Iced Latte using the free milk at the condiment bar (when serving it in a small appropriately-sized cup is a better and less-hostile solution).
So, Is Iced Espresso with water any different than Iced Americano?
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,846 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Wed Jul 16, 2008, 9:39pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
I think compromised espresso served over ice ASespresso is not something any quality driven shop would actually feel comfortable serving.
And iced Americano, on the other hand, sold as an iced Americano is non-deceiving as to what will be reflected in the cup.
Frankly, I can empathize with the no iced espresso, but yes iced americano stance.
It's about the coffee. Of course, this isn't true for everyone, and for a lot of people, the customer comes first, and the coffee comes second.
This is especially true for consumers who pride themselves in being "cold hard cash" logic consumers. What they buy becomes theirs to do with as they please.
On some level, this is true, but it does not resonate with respect for the coffee, and by extention the roaster, the green coffee buyer, the washing station, the harvesters, the nursery handlers, and the estate/farm owners.
It's a matter of respect. A sort of customer as found in this particular debate referred to a couple of sentences up believes that respecting the CUSTOMER is the only moral good that a retailer can subscribe to. This is simply not the case. While it is certainly A moral good, it is not the only one, and not always the primary good in a given hierarchy.
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,140 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 7:59am Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
Recently, I tried to make an iced espresso, which tasted rather good. I found that it is like hot espresso, that means that it depends on the quality of espresso. If the espresso taste good, the iced espresso may taste good, if not good, the iced espresso may not taste good. The only thing which resist me to put it in the iced drinks for coffee is that such an iced drink is too short and not right for normal purposes of drinking iced drinks in hot summer.
But, for espresso lovers, it is something to enjoy. You can try it, and see how it is.
What we did is to put some ice cubics in a shaker and the hot espresso, and shake it for a minute to cool it down. And then, pour it into the original espresso cup.
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 10:11am Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
I agree with all that Jasonian has said, but I have limited empathy with anystanceabout serving coffee.
I was trying to avoid any moral or semantic questions raised by the Murky Incident, and focus on taste. I should have asked Does Iced Americano TASTE any different than Iced Espresso and water?
I have conducted my own taste test.
I had my friendly barista pull a shot into room temperature water and another onto ice, and then add ice and water for equal amounts in each.
I could not taste the difference, but I could see the difference. The surface of the shot pulled onto ice had congealed oils floating on it, where the one pulled into water still looked much more emulsified. Based on this, I have to agree that Iced Americano is slightly better than Iced Espresso and water (but not enough to make any fuss over). However, the only significant difference I could find in my test between Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano, was strength. Perhaps someone could taste the difference, but direct icing created no noticeable "unpleasantly acrid flavors" as claimed by Murky’s owner.
I believe communication and education are important parts of a barista’s work. Recommending Iced Americano over Iced Espresso might be good, but taking a stance against Icing Espresso is just silly and hostile. Of course the customer also has a responsibility for reasonable communication.
The Murky Incident does not seem to be about the coffee; it seems rooted in American attitudes of entitlement, and perceived disrespect by both parties when none was initially intended. The barista is entitled to practice his craft as he sees fit, and the customer is entitled to have it their way. So what? Even with this entitled attitude it’s not hard to accommodate one another.
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 12:08pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
With all I've read about this incident, I've got to say that I'm left with disdain for the customer's ultimate behavior (mainly related to the offensive "tip," not his incredulity at the barista's pursuit of the matter beyond BTC.) and no interest in ever patronizing Murky Coffee. They're a little too "precious" about an ounce and a half of coffee for my tastes--just pull me a freakin' good shot that I can do with what I wish and spare me your personal angst. And I must add that all this talk of respect trickling down to the grower/harvester level just cracks me up when applied to this issue. What we're talking about here was a values pissing contest. Regardless of who one points the finger at in this instance, Nick seems to be a controversy magnet who leaves me hoping that not all SCAA board members possess like characteristics. Right or wrong regarding café policy in this instance, his and his barista's behaviors are certainly not the actions of those who sincerely wish to bring better espresso to the masses. It ain't gonna happen this way.
E d C u s t a r d pseudo-barista
"...the extreme of banality allows us to catch a glimpse of the sublime." Umberto Eco
APalmer Senior Member Joined: 1 Feb 2008 Posts: 9 Location: Ramsey, Minnesota Expertise: Professional
Espresso: La Marzocco GB/5 Grinder: Mazzer Robur Drip: Bodum Bistro
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 5:44pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
We're in the final process of creating a seasonal espresso, and while pulling some shots today, we decided to test whether an iced espresso or iced americano was better. We pulled a double with one spout dripping into a glass with water and the other spout dripping onto ice. We then added ice to the espresso and water glass. We were careful to keep the ratio of water/ice to espresso equal in both glasses. The iced espresso was easily better. More aromatics, less bitterness, more noticable fruity notes. Granted, this coffee was certainly not the coffee used in the aforementioned incident, and therefore, this post cannot make any real judgements toward said iced espresso/iced americano incident, but it was an interesting sidenote to the day.
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 6:32pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
Jasonian Said:
It's a matter of respect. A sort of customer as found in this particular debate referred to a couple of sentences up believes that respecting the CUSTOMER is the only moral good that a retailer can subscribe to. This is simply not the case. While it is certainly A moral good, it is not the only one, and not always the primary good in a given hierarchy.
No customers, no coffee farmers. No coffee farmers, no customers. Respect has to be in both directions. No one likes to be talked down to, and sometimes we can come off that way. That said, what is it to a barista if someone wants an espresso pulled over ice? Is it really denigrating the hard work of the farmer? I would argue that when you refuse someone something perfectly reasonable like an espresso pulled over ice at a quality shop, the customer is very likely to cross the street and go to *$ where no one would ever question it. Ever.
Elitism disguised as education will not separate so called 3rd wave from 2nd wave - it is about the coffee for sure, but has to be about the service too.
This, by the way, is not in any way a dig against Murky. We have been equally guilty of the high horse.
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,846 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Thu Jul 17, 2008, 8:09pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
Sutono Said:
No customers, no coffee farmers. No coffee farmers, no customers. Respect has to be in both directions. No one likes to be talked down to, and sometimes we can come off that way. That said, what is it to a barista if someone wants an espresso pulled over ice? Is it really denigrating the hard work of the farmer? I would argue that when you refuse someone something perfectly reasonable like an espresso pulled over ice at a quality shop, the customer is very likely to cross the street and go to *$ where no one would ever question it. Ever.
Elitism disguised as education will not separate so called 3rd wave from 2nd wave - it is about the coffee for sure, but has to be about the service too.
This, by the way, is not in any way a dig against Murky. We have been equally guilty of the high horse.
I don't think I said anything about waves. Frankly, I think the entire notion of "waves" is just silly.
I see continual progress devoid of such ridiculous dividing lines. They do more harm than good, if you ask me.
I agree 100% that the respect flows in both directions. In this particular incident, the barista wasn't given the option of how to respond. The barista was given a set of rules by their boss.
Deciding to sell or not sell a certain product a certain was is up to each retailer, and is not for me to pass judgment on.
As a consumer, if I go somewhere for a product and they do not offer it, I just go somewhere else that will, regardless of what that product may be.
No man can be all things to all people. Indifference is not a good way to run a business.
We may question the lines Murky has chosen to draw, but it is not our place to question if what the barista did was right or wrong. It was contingent with company policy. Within the walls of any business, that's considered to be "the right thing."
The issue of whether or not "iced espresso" is worth serving is another topic entirely, and while it may touch, it is but a tangent to the so-called controversy at hand.
prhomme Senior Member Joined: 1 Oct 2007 Posts: 8 Location: New Jersey Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Giotto Grinder: Macap M4
Posted Fri Jul 18, 2008, 5:13am Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
I wonder what would happen if one went into Starbucks and asked for an iced espresso? Being a huge corporate entity, I would bet they have policies against straying from their product line.
This is a fascinating situation. The customer has a right to spend his money on whatever, but the retailer also has a right to sell his products as he sees fit. He may lose business over that decision, but he does have that right.
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