I don't know, but here's what I did, and why I did it:
The only meaningful test on freezing beans I could find is this one by Ken Fox and Jim Schulman: www.home-barista.com/store-coffee-in-freezer.html
They reached these conclusions:
"Two months is safe: Freshly roasted coffee that is immediately frozen after roasting in a near airtight container in a very cold freezer, can be kept undisturbed in the freezer for at least 2 months and be expected to produce espressos that are not obviously inferior to those made from fresh coffee that has never been frozen.
Freezing does not accelerate staling after defrosting: At least over a period of time extending to about 8 days after roasting, using the roasting and freezing procedure used here, there was no evidence that previously frozen coffee deteriorates more quickly after defrosting than does coffee that has never been frozen."
So I did what they did: I froze the beans as soon as possible after roasting (two days in this case). I put them in Mason Jars. I put them in a very cold freezer.
Posted Fri Mar 1, 2013, 9:09pm Subject: Re: Redbird Espresso
JimOD Said:
So I did what they did: I froze the beans as soon as possible after roasting (two days in this case). I put them in Mason Jars. I put them in a very cold freezer.
Perhaps that is only half the freezing story. What Ken and Jim buried in the fifth paragraph of the conclusion section but what you could see in the first photo, and what was mentioned to me by Nicholas (HB of home-barista fame) was that this coffee storage was done in a chest freezer. Quoting from the fifth paragraph of the conclusion:
The second is that not all freezers, especially freezer compartments of refrigerators, can maintain very cold temperatures. Self-defrosting freezers are especially problematic in that regard.
Very cold in a chest freezer is different than very cold in a refrigerator freezer and it is not just a matter of how cold it registers on your thermometer (if you bother to use one) when you open the door. A refrigerator freezer has a heat coil in the floor that cycles on and off to prevent ice buildup between the freezer compartment and the refrigerator compartment; a chest freezer has no such coil or need for one. The temperature of the refrigerator freezer cycles up and down daily because of this and it will not be possible to get the cryostability of the chest freezer or the ability to store coffee for two months without deterioration, as was noted in that study.
JimOD Senior Member Joined: 24 Jun 2012 Posts: 31 Location: Orange, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Aroma Non Pressurized Grinder: Baratza Preciso with Esatto Drip: Bunn NHBX-B
Posted Sat Mar 2, 2013, 9:26am Subject: Re: Redbird Espresso
Buckley Said:
Perhaps that is only half the freezing story. What Ken and Jim buried in the fifth paragraph of the conclusion section but what you could see in the first photo, and what was mentioned to me by Nicholas (HB of home-barista fame) was that this coffee storage was done in a chest freezer. Quoting from the fifth paragraph of the conclusion:
The second is that not all freezers, especially freezer compartments of refrigerators, can maintain very cold temperatures. Self-defrosting freezers are especially problematic in that regard.
Very cold in a chest freezer is different than very cold in a refrigerator freezer and it is not just a matter of how cold it registers on your thermometer (if you bother to use one) when you open the door. A refrigerator freezer has a heat coil in the floor that cycles on and off to prevent ice buildup between the freezer compartment and the refrigerator compartment; a chest freezer has no such coil or need for one. The temperature of the refrigerator freezer cycles up and down daily because of this and it will not be possible to get the cryostability of the chest freezer or the ability to store coffee for two months without deterioration, as was noted in that study.
I understood they used a chest freezer, and that the defrost cycle may change the outcome. Jim and Ken pointed this out, and stated "the data in this study can be augmented by reports of readers who have used less rigorous approaches, and I solicit their findings in the comment thread following this article."
The comment thread following the article currently has 52 posts, stretching over about a 2 year period. As far as I can tell, all the posters who freeze coffee beans have experienced the ability to store beans without detectable taste deterioration for at least two months, in either a chest freezer, or a refrigerator freezer.
I think the posters are probably correct. I have taken temperature readings in my refrigerator freezer during different times, and have noted only about a 6 degree temperature deviation. It seems like the heating of the coils, located ouside the freezer box, does not have much effect on the inside temperature of the freezer. Maybe the defrost time is very short, and the insulation of the freezer box is very efficient. Maybe I'm keeping the door closed during defrost periods. My refrigerator is a side-by-side, which may make a difference. I really don't know why, but over the last week, while I was waiting for my Redbird order, the temperature stayed between -1F and -7F during approximately 10 measurements.
However, I'm curious to read more information on the subject. Could you tell me
What is your source for the statement - " ... it will not be possible to get the cryostability of the chest freezer or the ability to store coffee for two months without deterioration, as was noted in that study." I understand it is not possible for the refrigerator freezer to be as stable as the chest freezer, but does this make it impossible to store coffee without detectable taste deterioration for two months?
What standard of cryostability is required? Is a 6 degree deviation too much?
What is the normal temperature deviation in a modern, top-end refrigerator freezer?
Anyway, I'll have actual taste results in about 4-5 weeks, when I use the last jar of frozen beans from this batch. I'll let you know how it comes out.
Dules Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2013 Posts: 32 Location: Rochester, MN Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Office Lever Grinder: Preciso
Posted Sat Mar 2, 2013, 4:41pm Subject: Re: Redbird Espresso
I must say I am quite impressed with Jeff's customer service. So I placed my 1st order for some redbird espresso, and for one reason or another the order never got shipped. Which sucks as I ended up running out of beans and have had to resort to less than ideal local roasted beans that are older than I like to use. I contacted Jeff via email; and, within two hours a new bag was shipped out via USPS for me, and I have checked and this order was picked up, and will hopefully arrive by tuesday. The fast response to my email, and fixing the situation by sending out a new bag of beans was really appreciated, and it made a horrible experience a little better.
Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 6:06am Subject: Re: Redbird Espresso
Dear JimOD,
In order not to hijack this thread, I have started a thread http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/general/618712 where I attempt to address the questions that you, indeed all of us, have about refrigerator/freezer storage of beans.
JimOD Senior Member Joined: 24 Jun 2012 Posts: 31 Location: Orange, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Saeco Aroma Non Pressurized Grinder: Baratza Preciso with Esatto Drip: Bunn NHBX-B
Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 5:34pm Subject: Re: Redbird Espresso
I posted this in Buckley's new thread, but I thought I would put it here also because so many people buy RedBird Espresso in 5 lb bags. I think it may improve the freezing process when using a refrigerator/freezer, to place the container of beans inside a soft insulated lunch bag prior to putting them in the freezer. I actually put the empty lunch bag in the freezer, fully open, for a couple of hours to cool it down, prior to putting my jars of beans into it. The lunch bag doesn't take up much space, and changed the temperature readings significantly. I have a side by side refrigerator/freezer. Here is what I found:
I did some measurements of my freezer temperature today to determine cooling loss and recovery after the door is opened for a given amount of time. I placed a digital thermometer at the front of a shelf, nearest the door, to try and get a reading in the area with maximum temperature fluctuation. The thermometer probe was placed near a jar of coffee, so I am measuring the temperature of the air around the stored coffee. The initial temperature was -6F.
After the door was open 30 sec the temperature rose to 2F, a rise of 8 degrees above initial temperature. After the door was open 60 sec the temperature rose to 17F, a rise of 23 degrees above initial temperature. After the door was open 90 sec the temperature rose to 40F, a rise of 46 degrees above initial temperature.
I closed the door after 90 sec to begin measuring recovery time. I had determined from earlier observation of family members during the week that the freezer is rarely open longer than 30 seconds, and I have never observed it open for longer than 60 seconds during my week of observation.
After the door was closed for 1 min the temperature fell to 30F, a recovery of 10 degrees below the last observed temperature with the door open. 2 min 23F recovery of 17 degrees 10 min 10F recovery of 30 degrees 25 min 2F recovery of 38 degrees, back to temperature loss when door was open 30 sec. 39 min -3F recovery of 43 degrees 53 min -3F recovery of 43 degrees, temperature is only ticking down by 10ths of degrees over several minutes at this time, and I stopped measurements.
I measured a significant increase in temperature, with slow recovery time.
I took a second set of measurements after placing two of the jars of coffee into a soft insulated lunch bag. The two jars fit snugly. The top had a zipper type closure. I opened the zipper just enough to put the probe into the bag, again measuring the temperature of the air surrounding the jars of coffee.
The initial temperature in the bag was -1F.
After the door was open 30 sec the temperature stayed at -1F, no rise above initial temperature. After the door was open 60 sec the temperature rose to 0F, a rise of 1 degree above initial temperature. After the door was open 90 sec the temperature stayed at 0F, a rise of 1 degree above initial temperature.
I closed the door after 90 sec to begin measuring recovery time.
After the door was closed for 1 min the temperature rose to 1F, a rise of 2 degrees above initial temperature. There appears to be a lag time within the insulated bag. 2 min 2F rise of 3 degrees. The lag time is still affecting the temperature. 6 min 3F rise of 4 degrees. The lag time is still affecting the temperature. 7 min 2F recovery of one degree over the highest recorded temperatue in the insulated bag. Recovery has begun at this time, and I stopped the measurements.
The total observed rise in temperatue of the air surrounding the uninsulated coffee jars was 46 degrees, compared to a total observed rise of the air surrounding the insulated jars of 4 degrees.
Concerning the issue of thermostat control, my freezer has a seperate control. It is a dial from 1 to 8, with 8 being the coldest. My dial has been set to 4 since I began measuring freezer temperatures about a week ago. Today, I have begun moving the dial up one number, and will measure the temperature each 24 hours, to see how cold I can get the freezer.
Three things now come to mind that would allow a refrigerator/freezer to more closely simulate a chest freezer.
1. When opening the freezer door, do so for the shortest amount of time.
2. Put the coffee bean containers in an insulated environment within the freezer.
Posted Wed Mar 6, 2013, 3:28pm Subject: Re: Redbird Espresso
Ordered on Friday 3-1-13 and received today Wed. 3-6-13 on the coast of NC. But the USPS let the package get wet. but the contents weren't harmed even the chocolates were ok
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