By the way, I presently have equipment of the following nationalities:
.........
So why aren't I making "Italian Espresso"?
Cheers, Jason
Cappucinoboy Said:
because yuo believe that all coffee sold in groceries is stale (even when properly roasted and carefully packaged in the best technological package to guarantee longer shelf life....)
I want to first say that the purpose of this post is not to be argumentative. There have been several posts already explaining this. So, I'm going to read your post literally, ONLY to explain my thought on it. "even when properly roasted and carefully packaged in the best technological package to guarantee longer shelf life....)" Now, excluding MAYBE, GreenMountain and Illy.. coffee found in a grocery store is NOT roasted properly. The beans LARGE companies buy are low quality.. Low-grown Robustas, Triage, and low-grade Arabica. These are blended together and roasted in such a way as to HIDE the defects found in low-quality coffee. These companies "cup" thier coffees in a completly different manner then artisan roasters do. Its more or less, a "blind cupping", as opposed to what roasters like counter culture, or Ritual(for example) do, where they all cup coffee together, and discuss thier thoughts. Plain and simple, large companies selling thier coffee in grocery stores, MONTHS after it was roasted, many times Pre-Ground, are aware of the fact their coffee is NOT high quality, and try to hide that fact in thier roasting, and in how they cup coffee. Im specifically speaking of coffee roasters, like Folgers, Maxwell House, Eight o Clock etc.. This coffee comes in a plastic tub, pre-ground, and ALREADY STALE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER BUYING IT. Seal it however you want, it was roasted months ago and its pre-ground. Its stale. Done.
Now lets consider, specifically Illy and Green Mountain. For the most part, you can find these brands in whole bean, although pre-ground is available, lets only consider whole bean. Green Mountain uses a one-way valve bag, and Illy uses thier nitrogen flushing process. These companies arent buying AS LOW GRADE as the companies named above.. but you can bet dollar to doughnuts they are NOT interested in COE coffees, SCAA coffee of the year lots, Rare Microlots, or even vaguely, the highest possible quality. They do a bit of a better job roasting, and they have some sense to offer thier coffee in whole bean form. however, the coffee is still ROASTED MONTHS BEFORE it ever hits the shelves. Now, because illy uses the nitrogen flushing, YES, THIER CANS OF BEANS HAVE A LONGER SHELF LIFE then other coffees. You can see this buy buying a can of illy, opening it, and pulling a shot.. It will be decent. however, as noted, six-seven hours later, the coffee begins to show its true colors, and that "shelf-stable" can of beans, is now open, and JUST AS STALE as anything else.. plain and simple, stale coffee is stale coffee.. I dont care if its a low-grown robusta or the Panama Giesha Auction lot.. It is stale. Green Mountain uses only a one-way valve bag, and upon opening it, just by LOOKINg at the beans, you can see they are covered in oil, whether its a dark roast or a city roast.. STALE.
Now lets consider coffee companies like, Counter Culture, Intelligenstia, Ritual Roasters, and many others. THESE people seek out THE HIGHEST QUALITY beans they can possibly find. They ARE interested in rare microlot coffee, as well as COE coffee and the highest possible quality they can get. They work with THE FARMERS to develop coffees to be the best they can be. They buy from SMALL farms, ensuring quality, AS WELL AS insuring the farmer(s) are properly paid, generally much higher then "FTO" standards. They take these coffees, FROM ORIGIN, and cup them together, and DISCUSS thier findings together... SEARCHING for any possible defects to eliminate them from the batch, not hide them from the consumer. Ten minutes spent reading about Intelly and counter culture and what they are doing for the specialty coffee industry should give you an idea the level of commitment to the QUALITY OF COFFEE they sell.(these arent the only two roasters who are doing this, just two I mentioned and have been reading about). The coffee is roasted in SMALL batches, under the careful watch of an artisan.. not a timer. They are baged immediatly and stamped with the ROASTED ON date. Simply put, you KNOW that when you buy coffee from a roaster like this, you are getting the best coffee, and that it is FRESH. In fact, almost everytime I order from one of these guys(or any artisan roaster) the coffee is TOO fresh, and I need to wait a few days before I use it.
My point is.. Zin is 100% correct in "thinking" that all coffee sold in grocery stores is stale. IT IS. You can do whatever you want to the coffee, flush it with nitrogen, flush it with inert gases, hell, package it in sealed bags of virgins tears wrapped in gold.. COFFEE GOES STALE. you can keep it ON A SHELF for about 6 months with nitro flushing, but once it is exposed to oxygen, it shows its true colors.. and those colors show, its just as stale as all the other NON-nitro flushed coffee which has been on a shelf for six months.
Roasted coffee is not something that can be stored for long periods of time. there is NO getting around this. If coffee COULD be stored for long periods of time, then nitro flushing wouldnt be needed. Its just another way of hiding the fact that it is NOT the best uality coffee possible.
As to the whole "Italian Espresso" thing.. For one, espresso in Italy is a much different thing then it is to us, here on the board. In italy, its a life style, something to casually enjoy throughout the day. It costs less, and it doesnt change. A lot of "italian" blends use a good portion of robusta. But that is NOT what defines espresso. Espresso is a BREWING METHOD. You DO NOT need to use a certain bean or blend. Some beans/blends taste better as espresso then others, sure. however, i am pretty confident, that the ONLY thing that makes Italian Espresso, Italian, is the fact that is is made in Italy. Im also pretty confident that a SO Ethiopian Worka is a BETTER espresso, then a 60/40 Arabica/Robusta blend is as espresso. The fact that Italians havent changed anything in the way of what they do with espresso shows ONE THING. No one there WANTS it to change.. they enjoy it just fine. America gets a lot of heat for having bad espresso(and MOST of the espresso here IS bad), but Ya know? That was most likely one of the driving reasons for the "revolution" of espresso in America. Amazing machine designs, Rare, bright, fruity wet-processed beans are being used for espresso, or even a blend made entirely from them is becoming more and more common now. Having an espresso in italy, is A LOT about the atomsphere, the ritual, the lifestyle. While that is true in america as well, I think there is A LOT more focus on the COFFEE here, and that is as it should be. This whole "Italian espresso vs. other espresso is silly. Espresso is a method of brewing coffee, and as we learn more about the coffee itself, the methods we use are bound to change. There was once a time when Percolators were the most common coffee brewer in the country. Ya ever had perc'd coffee? I have. And Im glad we learned enough about it to stop using them.
¡VIVA LA REVOLUCION!
...Follow Your Bliss... ....And grind finer, tamp lighter....
In the last 6 years of selling Mazzers, we have only experienced one defective grinder.-Jim Piccinich 1st-line Equipment, a Home-Barista Forum Post
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 280 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Sat Jul 4, 2009, 12:28pm Subject: Re: Single Origin Espresso
JmanEspresso Said:
I want to first say that the purpose of this post is not to be argumentative....... The beans LARGE companies buy are low quality.. Low-grown Robustas, Triage, and low-grade Arabica. These are blended together and roasted in such a way as to HIDE the defects......... many times Pre-Ground, are aware of the fact their coffee is NOT high quality,....... Its stale. Done.
Now lets consider,........ JUST AS STALE as anything else.. plain and simple, stale coffee is stale coffee.... STALE.
Now lets consider coffee companies like, Counter Culture, Intelligenstia, Ritual Roasters, and many others. THESE people seek out THE HIGHEST QUALITY beans they can possibly find. ........
As to the whole "Italian Espresso" thing.. For one, espresso in Italy is a much different thing then it is to us, here on the board. In italy, its a life style, something to casually enjoy throughout the day. It costs less, and it doesnt change......... Espresso is a method of brewing coffee, and as we learn more about the coffee itself, the methods we use are bound to change. .........
*You may be right but I know different : large companies do not buy low quality, they buy "in advance" all the best crops : try and buy some good arabicas from Venezuela: my personal experience a few years ago was that Illy had an open purchase order for all that was available (they claim that their blends include 25 different arabicas).......and anyway the market is controlled by crudists not roasters (do you see analogies with DeBeer's diamond business???) If I just judge from appearance of beans, I must say that SB are buying very good grade..... *Purpose of blending is to "enhance" the best qualities of different coffees, I accept that it can also be used to "hide"
you should change that "possibly find" in "that is left to them" *agree, espresso is a brewing method that happened to be invented by Italians : Leave me my Italian espresso and my way of life (that I like to share with you whenever possible...), since I find nothing wrong with your way of life .....(depending on the situation sometimes I prefer a good hot cup of drip coffee...), when the methods you use will have in fact changed (rather than simply stating that they are bound to change..)we can start a discussion which method is better or superior..... My post to ZIN1953 was just an attempt to pull his leg and end a long discussion in a friendly way ...(probably my second language is still not good enough if my wording gets so terribly misunderstood) You can always prove me wrong making me a great (not good enough... but I will appreciate anyway) Espresso with the SO of your choice. Because it is what is in the cup that matters !!!!
We should share together, exchange ideas...and wouldn't be wonderful if we could take turns hosting each other and making espresso and sharing stories and great food and drink? To me, this is what it's all about.
There is no "better" or "best" because it's all a matter of individual taste. One of the jewels of life is that we get to experience it all (as much as we can). So let's not be hasty or judgemental, instead we can reach out and broaden ourselves.
Happy 4th y'all :-)) (For our non-American freinds, the 4th of July in Independance Day for the USA)
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 280 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Sun Jul 5, 2009, 4:22am Subject: Re: Single Origin Espresso
JonR10 Said:
Pietro - I edited your post to clean up the quote - please let me know if I correctly captured your intent...
Thank goodness we all agree on this!
We should share together, exchange ideas...and wouldn't be wonderful if we could take turns hosting each other and making espresso and sharing stories and great food and drink? To me, this is what it's all about.
There is no "better" or "best" because it's all a matter of individual taste. One of the jewels of life is that we get to experience it all (as much as we can). So let's not be hasty or judgemental, instead we can reach out and broaden ourselves.
Happy 4th y'all :-)) (For our non-American freinds, the 4th of July in Independance Day for the USA)
Thank you Jon for correcting the mess I did of the quote, you did exactly as it was intended to be , it has been already second time, but that happens because I do not preview..... Hope it has been a good 4th of July for you Ciao, Pietro
I want to first say that the purpose of this post is not to be argumentative. There have been several posts already explaining this. So, I'm going to read your post literally, ONLY to explain my thought on it. "even when properly roasted and carefully packaged in the best technological package to guarantee longer shelf life....)" Now, excluding MAYBE, GreenMountain and Illy.. coffee found in a grocery store is NOT roasted properly. ..... and ALREADY STALE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER BUYING IT. Seal it however you want,......... Its stale. Done.
Now lets consider, specifically Illy and Green Mountain. .... Green Mountain uses a one-way valve bag, and Illy uses thier nitrogen flushing process. These companies arent buying AS LOW GRADE as the companies named above.. ......, YES, THIER CANS OF BEANS HAVE A LONGER SHELF LIFE then other coffe............... JUST AS STALE as anything else.. plain and simple......, stale coffee is stale coffee....... I dont care ....... STALE.
Now lets consider coffee companies like, Counter Culture, Intelligenstia, Ritual Roasters,................. is FRESH. In fact, almost everytime I order from one of these guys(or any artisan roaster) the coffee is............................ TOO fresh, and I need to wait a few days before I use it.
My point is........ all coffee sold in grocery stores........ is stale. IT IS. You can do whatever you want to the coffee,.... COFFEE GOES STALE. you can keep it ON A SHELF for about 6 months with nitro flushing, but once ............., its just as stale............ as all the other NON-nitro flushed coffee which has been on a shelf for six months.
Roasted coffee is not something that can be stored for long periods of time. there is NO getting around this.
JMAN you seem obsessed with staleness (or should I nsay freshness??): have you read HB's review on to" freeze or not to freeze "??..... well it seems that there is a viable way to preserve coffee freshness, and that is deep freezing ..... Now they did not re-invent the wheel, since industrial deep freezing has been available to food industry for a long time, still despite a few inconsistencies like deep freezing immediately after roasting (it could get degassed after defrosting.... , shouldn't that be some 7-8 days later??) grind immediately after defrosting, and arguable cupping method (a 50% chance of beeing wrong-right), the effort can only be appreciated and the result accepted if not fully shared. STILL......... If it was a viable (or better) way don't you think that those big companies interested in selling "marketable" coffee would have explored the advantages of deep freezing ??? deep freezing procedures exist, are well known and available and dooing it in an industrial environment can only give "much better" results than dooing it at home !! Because the maajority of coffee sold in groceries is marketable, and the fact that people keep buying it just proves it, because you do not think that those people out there are stupid ?? or do you ?? The fact that you like your coffee as fresh as possible (still after degassing, as you clearly admit) is just like me preferring prunes when they are not fully ripe and keep a "good" sharp taste : that does not really go with people who like them nice and sweet : we are "unique" human beeings .....VIVE LA DIFFERENCE !!!!!!
Pietro - I edited your post to clean up the quote - please let me know if I correctly captured your intent...
Thank goodness we all agree on this!
We should share together, exchange ideas...and wouldn't be wonderful if we could take turns hosting each other and making espresso and sharing stories and great food and drink? To me, this is what it's all about.
There is no "better" or "best" because it's all a matter of individual taste. One of the jewels of life is that we get to experience it all (as much as we can). So let's not be hasty or judgemental, instead we can reach out and broaden ourselves.
Happy 4th y'all :-)) (For our non-American freinds, the 4th of July in Independance Day for the USA)
Because the maajority of coffee sold in groceries is marketable, and the fact that people keep buying it just proves it, because you do not think that those people out there are stupid ?? or do you ??
Not stupid, just misinformed or uniformed. Most don't know yet how much better fresh roasted can be.
It's like my father used to say:
You know the difference between ignorance and stupidity? Ignorance can be cured!
The "Third Wave" movement is all about promoting awareness and raising the level of quality overall. I would not expect the world to change overnight, but the movement has gained alot of ground over the years. This is evidenced by the proliferation of better independant cafes and also the availability of more higher-quality machines available for home use.
Now we can can choose from a wide selection of HX and double boiler machines with pourover tanks and vibe pumps for use in the home. This is a market response to the rising demand of home espresso enthusiasts.
Despite the lack of freshness of supermarket coffee, it can still be an enjoyable beverage, which is the point. We know just how much better it can be.
-Scott Coffee smells like freshly ground heaven. ~Jessi Lane Adams
Heh, I chuckled when I saw the excerpted quote from my previous post. And, Pietro, what you said is true. I AM obsessed with the freshness of my coffee. The obsession is probably rooted in my career in the restaurant. Fresh in the restaurant is what makes a difference. I once worked for a fellow who REFUSED, often loudly, about buying fresh vegetables for pizza and dishes. He said no one cared about fresh vegetables, so why bother. Well he isn't in business anymore. The person who took over his location has been there for 4 years now, and is often in our local paper being noted for his great food.
But back to coffee... No, I dont think the people who, week after week, month after month, continue to buy pre-ground coffee from Shop-Rite, WalMart and Stop&Shop, are stupid. They're simply un-informed. As I said early(I think..), I have converted a medium handfull of people to fresh coffee, either roasted by me, or an Artisan.. And they often tell me, that they dont know how in the world they ever drank coffee of any less quality.
My favorite story to tell is that of my closest and longest friend. We've known each other since we were small little people. EVERY single morning, he would make(not brew) a 20oz travel mug full of Nescafe' Tasters Choice Gourmet Roast Instant Coffee, and loved it.. swore by it. He was the FIRST person to give me a hard time about my love for coffee. He had a ball telling our friends about how crazy I was when I bought my current setup and invested the time, effort and money that I do in roasting, learning and mainly making, my own fresh coffee and espresso. One day, I got SLIGHTLY ticked off, and told him that I would roast him a pound of coffee, and brew him a cup.. And that if he did not like it, that I would drink instant coffee for a week, no fresh roast or espresso. Well, fast forward to the present, and he currently has set up in his kitchen, a Mazzer super jolly, a gaggia baby, two french presses and a vacpot, as well as a Behmor in his garage. The container of NesCafe' is nowhere to be found. I AM obsessed with freshness, and I think my obsession is justified by lots of things..Mainly, this Website, and the members who frequent it.
AS per freezing coffee.. You are correct. If done properly, coffee can be preserved for a little while in a freezer, without any ill-effects. Personally, I dont do it much, though I have on the RARE occasion that I have too much coffee on hand. Given the amount of coffee I drink in a 14 day period, freezing isnt something I need to look into. I buy 4lbs of coffee each order, and its gone in 14 days, often times less.
Youre right, in a way. Coffee sold in a grocery store, is marketable.. To the proper demographic. Its NOT marketable to people who have the knowledge about coffee to know the difference between fresh and stale, quality over quantity. But ya know what? The majority of people who buy said coffee, are very different then the people in the specialty coffee industry and those immersed in the "obsession". To them, coffee is anything but a hobby. Its something they drink in the morning, to wake up. Its brewed in a 10dollar coffee maker and ground in a 10dollar grinder. They're not interested in finding the best coffee they can possibly find, they just want thier cup of joe in the morning to take to work. They dont want to invest money in proper equipment, or worry about if their coffee is fresh or not. Is that wrong? No. Because thats what coffee is to them. But thats not what it is to me. Coffee, in all its forms, is a sensory experience, a hobby, an obsession. I spend endless hours on the internet reading, learning and researching what is happening in the specialty coffee industry. I read articles about what is happening in the different regions coffee is grown in. I read about new machine designs, and constantly try to improve the coffee I make. Because THAT, is what coffee is to me.
So yes, I AM obsessed with freshness.. Better yet, Im obsessed with coffee. If I came off defensive, its because of how much I love coffee. I know what coffee is to many people, but I know what it could be as well. It could be something to be enjoyed, to look forward to every day, something that is always changing and never boring. And if you love something, you want to savor it, in its BEST possible way. And for coffee.. That means quality beans, meticulously grown, expertly roasted, and enjoyed fresh. Anything else just wont suffice.
Ignorance can always be cured.. and I personally think that it always SHOULD be cured. But until it is, Ignorance Is Bliss.
...Follow Your Bliss... ....And grind finer, tamp lighter....
In the last 6 years of selling Mazzers, we have only experienced one defective grinder.-Jim Piccinich 1st-line Equipment, a Home-Barista Forum Post
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