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Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
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Discussions > Coffee > Q and A > Warm, humid...  
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 6:32am
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

Nothing wrong with freezing and it is the posters best option. Humidity is not a problem, freeze in zip bags or canning jars, about 4 days worth of beans in each lot. Take the beans out of the freezer and let them come to room temp BEFORE opening the container, condensation will form on the container but not on the beans inside, all will be well. The rooms moisture has no affect on the beans when you operate like that. Heck, you could be under water and it would make no difference.... as  long as the bag/container is sealed.

The fridge is bad because the temp is perfect to ACCELERATE staling, just as it is for baked products. It has little to do with food spoilage and if the fridge is operating correctly, below 45F it is the best place to store food. Bacteria slow down to nearly no activity below 45F which is why we keep our food in them. This is also why NSF standards require food to be above 140F (too hot for bacteria) or below 45F (too cold for bacteria).

 
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Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

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jpender
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 10:04am
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

CMIN Said:

Moisture and temps (I'm talking about the refrigerator part, not the freezer or a fridge as a whole). I used to store coffee in just the fridge and it would go bad faster then keeping in a cabinet, then I really got into coffee and learned freezing. Somebody was just talking about this recently, fridges only work temp as those temps are prime for bacteria etc, reason why meats and other things can go bad quickly. Keep opening and closing a container or bag filled with coffee and placing in and out of the fridge, keep introducing moisture especially in a humid area then staying moist and moist buildup in the fridge, fridge is always used waaaaay more than a feezer constantly opening (light, moisture, temps changing etc).... no thanks.

Posted August 5, 2013 link

If the coffee were in an airtight container external moisture would be a non-issue.


calblacksmith Said:

The fridge is bad because the temp is perfect to ACCELERATE staling, just as it is for baked products. It has little to do with food spoilage and if the fridge is operating correctly, below 45F it is the best place to store food. Bacteria slow down to nearly no activity below 45F which is why we keep our food in them. This is also why NSF standards require food to be above 140F (too hot for bacteria) or below 45F (too cold for bacteria).

Posted August 6, 2013 link

I know that the staling rate goes up at refrigerator temperature with bread but that is specific to what happens with the different forms of starch in bread. Refrigeration doesn't accelerate staling of peanuts, for example. So it isn't obvious that it would do so with coffee.

Oddly enough, Illy recommends refrigeration of their coffee once the container is opened.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

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Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:09am
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

How could Illy coffee be any worse after being opened, in a refer or not?

 
In real life, my name is
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Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

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jpender
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:46pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

calblacksmith Said:

How could Illy coffee be any worse after being opened, in a refer or not?

Posted August 6, 2013 link

I was anticipating a response like that. :o)
I'm sure you'd be happy to learn that Folgers also recommends both refrigeration and freezing.

According to Illy (who cites the work of others), the effect of temperature on staling is consistent as one approaches freezing. That is to say, colder is better as it reduces the rate of staling processes. However the effect of moisture is greater. I suspect that this is why "don't put coffee in the refrigerator" is the common wisdom. It's not that the temperature hurts the coffee; it's that improperly storing it in the refrigerator introduces additional moisture.

I haven't tried it.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,863
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:53pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

Rather, I think it is the way that the unknowing operate when storing in a refer. They put the whole container of coffee (normally ground) in the refer then open the bag/can and take out what they want, close the bag and put it back in the refer, this adds moisture in the form of condensation to the coffee every time they open the bag, that is a bad thing.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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CMIN
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 1:38pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

calblacksmith Said:

Rather, I think it is the way that the unknowing operate when storing in a refer. They put the whole container of coffee (normally ground) in the refer then open the bag/can and take out what they want, close the bag and put it back in the refer, this adds moisture in the form of condensation to the coffee every time they open the bag, that is a bad thing.

Posted August 6, 2013 link

that's what I was trying to say lol... been there done that, like I mentioned before I really got into coffee. Even whole beans in a air tight container the same problem will happen to, everytime you take it out, get your beans, then put it back in the fridge your exposing it to moisture and I imagine in a really humid no a/c place like the OP it'd be even worse (better off just leaving in cabinet airtight). Beans in fridge go bad fasssst in my experience. Not so with my freezer, and if you just left beans in the fridge and then took out as you use and left in a cabinet sealed (like I go frozen) they stale fast as heck. I've got 2lbs in the freezer right now, no way would I leave that in the fridge.
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jpender
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 3:15pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

CMIN Said:

that's what I was trying to say lol... been there done that, like I mentioned before I really got into coffee. Even whole beans in a air tight container the same problem will happen to, everytime you take it out, get your beans, then put it back in the fridge your exposing it to moisture and I imagine in a really humid no a/c place like the OP it'd be even worse (better off just leaving in cabinet airtight). Beans in fridge go bad fasssst in my experience. Not so with my freezer, and if you just left beans in the fridge and then took out as you use and left in a cabinet sealed (like I go frozen) they stale fast as heck. I've got 2lbs in the freezer right now, no way would I leave that in the fridge.

Posted August 6, 2013 link

You introduce moisture each time you remove the container from the refrigerator, open it, take out some beans, and then return it to the refrigerator. But why wouldn't the same be true if you were taking the container out of the freezer each day instead?
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CMIN
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

jpender Said:

You introduce moisture each time you remove the container from the refrigerator, open it, take out some beans, and then return it to the refrigerator. But why wouldn't the same be true if you were taking the container out of the freezer each day instead?

Posted August 6, 2013 link

Uhhhh who takes the jar out of the freezer each day ;) ??? I take out, defrost, then it stays in the cabinet until used up. Putting defrosted beans back in the freezer would be an even bigger no no then leaving in the fridge imo lol, nobody does that, and if they did they'd quickly realize their mistake next use. I take out, defrost, open and dose beans, seal zip bag up with air squeezed out and put back in the container and seal lid, and place back in the cabinet... until it's used up. Maybe that's where your confusion was coming from thinking people are putting it back in?? I can pull as good tasting shots as fresh from beans frozen for two months and on similar grind settings and sometimes a smidge finer as the beans are used up from the jar, that won't work with fridge storage.
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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

CMIN Said:

Uhhhh who takes the jar out of the freezer each day ;) ??? I take out, defrost, then it stays in the cabinet until used up. Putting defrosted beans back in the freezer would be an even bigger no no then leaving in the fridge imo lol, nobody does that, and if they did they'd quickly realize their mistake next use. I take out, defrost, open and dose beans, seal zip bag up with air squeezed out and put back in the container and seal lid, and place back in the cabinet... until it's used up. Maybe that's where your confusion was coming from thinking people are putting it back in?? I can pull as good tasting shots as fresh from beans frozen for two months and on similar grind settings and sometimes a smidge finer as the beans are used up from the jar, that won't work with fridge storage.

Posted August 6, 2013 link

I count six people posting (or mentioned) in this thread in March 2013 who take only the beans they plan to use that day out of the freezer.

"Abe Carmeli has been single dosing his coffees straight out of the freezer for years. His testing shows no problem with the method."
-- Jim Schulman
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CMIN
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Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Tue Aug 6, 2013, 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Warm, humid environment vs. Refrigeration
 

jpender Said:

I count six people posting (or mentioned) in this thread in March 2013 who take only the beans they plan to use that day out of the freezer.

"Abe Carmeli has been single dosing his coffees straight out of the freezer for years. His testing shows no problem with the method."
-- Jim Schulman

Posted August 6, 2013 link

I've read that thread, completely different from myself and others. Their not taking out, defrosting, then placing back later on and refreezing the beans and repeating that process over and over. Their using small batches at a time for a dose, i.e. just as an example a bag/jar of 16g and use that, and so on and so on, at least from what I read their not doing say... if I were to take my pint sized jars filled, and take out, scoop out 16g, then place back in the freezer, and then if I want another shot or more through the day doing that same process, their not doing that. Their taking small frozen batches at a time and just grinding frozen beans that were already done to be used like that in batches themselves (like if i were to freeze some bananas, and take one out at a time to put in my protein shakes, I do them individually since their moisture turns them into a block if all stuck in a freezer bag).

Think your confusing what were saying lol
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