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Rancilio Silvia - How to
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:11pm
Subject: .
 

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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:29pm
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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

Netphilosopher Said:

LRR is established by adding a second extraction term: A+E

Posted December 10, 2012 link

That's funny how you've turned this around!
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GlennV
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 8:29pm
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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Tue Dec 11, 2012, 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

Steve,

Although I sympathize with GlennV, I personally don't care how you count your fruit. I appreciate that there is practical merit to your approach. I was just amused that you turned the defintion on its head, so to speak, as LRR is defined merely as water retained per unit mass of coffee.

We really don't know in advance precisely the value of A or LRR, so any subtle variation due to extraction or moon phase is not useful when planning a brew, at least not a normal one. On this point I think we can all happily agree.

How to formulate the brewing equation is more a matter of preference. Your approach, being simpler, lends itself to back-of-the-napkin calculations. If using a computer this is no longer an advantage and I would expect Mojo to predict brewing output as well as you can. Using A or LRR should not matter.

And yet unless I'm mistaken it appears that with your graph above you are saying that it does matter. That surprises me given how little the difference should be.

A minor point: LRR and A are related by the yield, not the immersion extraction.
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Tue Dec 11, 2012, 8:16pm
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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Tue Dec 11, 2012, 9:08pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

I don't know if it makes your graph look different or not.

Netphilosopher Said:

Just to be sure, you're saying that LRR = A (some constant) + E (calculated by produced coffee TDS), right?

Posted December 11, 2012 link

Yes.

One way to write the mass balance is:

coffee + water = grounds_dried + retained_water + total_dissolved_solids_in_cup + water_in_cup

Rewriting this:

c + w = g + r + t + v

c = g + t and w = r + v

LRR is defined as:
l = r/c

l = r/c = (c+w-g-t-v)/c
= ((c-g) + w - (t+v))/c
= (t + w - p)/c, where p=t+v
= t/c + (w-p)/c
= extraction yield + "absorption"

Usually the immersion extraction is a couple of points higher than yield, right?
But when you push the brew ratio they can diverge by quite a bit more.
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Wed Dec 12, 2012, 6:17am
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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Wed Dec 12, 2012, 1:04pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

Netphilosopher Said:

My concept of absorption is based on produced coffee, with the balance of the combination of undissolved grounds and the coffee solution in the grounds, with the original mass of the grounds removed.

Posted December 12, 2012 link

That's what Glenn was objecting to, the way these quantities are mixed together. It works just fine but it's not the most intuitive approach. And while it isn't explicit in the definition your method assumes that there is a slight positive correlation between extraction yield and water absorbed. That could be true, who knows. But it looks like you've tacked that on in order to make the math simpler, not because of a physical model of absorption or data that demonstrate this.
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