Catallus Senior Member Joined: 12 Jan 2012 Posts: 20 Location: USA Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 7:08am Subject: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
Of all the coffee I drink and taste, I don't really know what they are suppose to taste like.
I use my V60 at home and purchase some fresh quality beans but I never know what my cup is suppose to be like.
Should I learn how to cup? Cup the beans before I start brewing the batch? I'm have a trouble knowing what to adjust. I don't know how to tell if it's over/under-extracted, if it's something about my pour, or temperature, or grind.
What do you guys recommend? Any good reading material or exercises I can do?
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 1:50pm Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
This is NOT a dumb question ...!!
When I buy (or roast) and brew using several kinds of coffee (and brewers) I often lose track of 'where' the cup should be. With a program of continuous improvement I often end up with coffee that is ...not bitter ...not sour ...just too intense.
I go to a good coffee-house a few times a week. What I mean by 'good' is not best ever; I mean 'consistent'. They make a decent brew consistently, week after week, and that keeps me adjusted to where I currently am.
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 6:13pm Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
Great question and one that I wrestled with when starting out! A great way to gauge your tastes and what coffee can be is to try some professionally made cups from a quality cafe.
In the time being, go by what tastes good to you. A good cup will have noticeable tang or acidity and sweetness. These components will vary greatly based on the bean. For the V60, I highly recommend Terroir's V60 method as an easy starting point. To judge the resulting cup, the first question should be, "Does this taste good?" If so, great! If not, "Does it taste weak?" If so, grind finer and use the same method again. If it tastes strong and very bitter, grind coarser and repeat. You'll get it with some practice - just brew an enjoy an tweak as you go. The journey towards what coffee can truly be is a fun one. Enjoy it and feel free to email me with any questions, as I love my V60!
Cerridwyn Senior Member Joined: 6 Jun 2010 Posts: 394 Location: Inland Empire California Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 9:15pm Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
Buy your beans from a good third wave roaster and see what they say they should taste like. Have one of their barista's make you a cup and tell you about what they taste, and if you like it, buy it and see what you can do with it.
I often go into a place that makes coffee more than one way, pick the coffee I want and say "Barista's choice". If they automatically go to their trifecta, and I ask why that makes it a better brew, most can't answer me, and after that I know the roaster may do good, but the baristas are just doing what they have been told.
Smaller, slightly less busy places will often talk to you more. They'll talk about regional differences, how washing impacts the beans, and it might make your head spin, the first time. But when the Barista knows their coffee, you will taste the difference and have a baseline on where to start.
Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012, 5:53am Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
We have a couple of coffee shops in the Raleigh/Durham area that have a business relationship with their roaster/supplier, Counter Culture Coffee. I find the baristas are quite well-informed, and almost never wrong. Now, their training is very much brewing and shot pulling, so they're not roasting experts, but they can hand you a cup of coffee that's (for lack of a better term) "right".
I use these places to calibrate my senses periodically. It's cheaper (and more fun) than a refractometer.
Catallus Senior Member Joined: 12 Jan 2012 Posts: 20 Location: USA Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012, 10:19am Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
Yeah, my area has a bunch of third wave shops that I frequently visit. However, I don't usually always purchase their beans (and I usually just get espressos).
The thing is that it sort of limits your bean purchase. But I get what you guys are saying. I'm hoping sometime in the future I can go to some Counter Culture or Intelligentsia classes to really get some feedback and instruction.
For now? I play around with a $18 12 oz bag of coffee, sometimes laughing at the note description as I try to find that papaya, lycheee, peach complexity and waiting for that tangerine finish.
Java_Jiver Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2010 Posts: 131 Location: Baton Rouge Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Capresso Infinity Drip: Technivorm 741
Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012, 10:33am Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
In reality, it all comes down to personal preference. What some professional brewer tastes good doesn't necessarily mean that any individual coffee enthusiast is going to agree with what he has said. It's very much like watching cooking shows on PBS or the food channel; if you are at all accomplished in your own cooking, it won't take you long to determine whether the recipe will be to your liking.
Over the past decade I've had some very wonderful coffees from scores of small roasters who take great pride in their wares. Sadly, none of them have tasted exactly how I would want them to taste, but it is simple enough to relate the sellers' descriptions to the taste that results. Everything matters, but in truth you're on your own.
Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012, 10:42am Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
Catallus Said:
Yeah, my area has a bunch of third wave shops that I frequently visit. However, I don't usually always purchase their beans (and I usually just get espressos).
The thing is that it sort of limits your bean purchase. But I get what you guys are saying. I'm hoping sometime in the future I can go to some Counter Culture or Intelligentsia classes to really get some feedback and instruction.
For now? I play around with a $18 12 oz bag of coffee, sometimes laughing at the note description as I try to find that papaya, lycheee, peach complexity and waiting for that tangerine finish.
It takes a good deal of palate experience to pull such delicate flavors from a cup. Start small. Is the cup sweet? If so, can you define the sweetness as fruity, caramelly, or bittersweet? Just start with general descriptions and over time your taste buds will become far more experienced and quick to pick up on aspects of the cup!
CraigJS Senior Member Joined: 8 May 2011 Posts: 66 Location: Minnesota, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Baratza M plus Drip: filter cone, FP, Moka
Posted Sat Jul 21, 2012, 4:31pm Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
You don't have to be anal about things to enjoy coffee. As said earlier, if you like it, it's a good cup. Not all tastes are the same.I'd rather drink my coffee, than hover over it like an exspectant father. YES I love good coffee. Is it the "proper" taste? Who cares if I'M satisfied?? ENJOY it.....
Posted Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:16pm Subject: Re: How do I know what the cup is SUPPOSE to taste like?
Ah - the age-old question: how is it SUPPOSED to taste?
There are no right or wrong answers - just what you end up with in the cup.
One issue with the question is how you brew it will vary the taste of any given coffee. Some coffees naturally end up with different strength for a given set of brew parameters. The brew method has a wide range of effects of the flavor - metal-filtered with shallow grounds bed (or not grounds bed, like a French Press) will be substantially different (not right or wrong) than one run through a drip coffee maker or chemex. Fines change perception of body. Some coffees are sensitive to brewing temperature while others may not be as much.
I struggled with this at first and finally decided on a couple things:
1) I will on occasion, or when trying a new variety, or new year crop, or different roasting technique, use cupping as one reference point. The method is simple, nearly foolproof, has a set brew ratio and consistent set of brew parameters. The resulting coffee will not be clean - it's just for taste sampling - but it works well enough for a comparison or taste check. Total coffee needed is only 10g. I wouldn't recommend drinking all of it. It is remarkable how the flavors change throughout a half hour of cooling.
2) I found a repeatable method for brewing samples (YMMV, but for me I've gotten excellent repeatability with an AeroPress and a fixed set of brew parameters). I simply apply a sample brew with that method before trying other methods. Total coffee needed is about 27g.
They are not how the coffee is supposed to taste - they are standard references only. Different coffees with same applied brewing method and control parameters. These two alone will tell you a lot about the coffee - overall acidity/brightness, flavor nuances, cooled coffee darker notes, spiciness, etc. The cupping method is better for assessing aroma, since the AeroPress traps some of the volatiles in the grounds when they are pressed. In the end, you find what works for you.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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