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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
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Posted Thu Jun 14, 2012, 3:27pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

I meant extraction yield in the normal sense, the ratio of solubles in the cup to initial dry coffee. In my understanding the yield for an immersion brew goes down as brew ratio increases even if the strength goes up.

By "all else being equal" I meant user inputs. I didn't mean to imply that changing the brew ratio would affect only the yield and nothing else.

Netphilosopher Said:

BUT - even if you get two brews to work at same (ish) brew control parameters and same grind (i.e. you actually get a 6% brew ratio and a 12% brew ratio on a medium 550micron grind to work in 6 minute delivery time), the difference in percolation just from the depth alone, and the extraction that happens during the percolation, means that the higher brew ratio just won't extract as much as the lower brew ratio.

Posted June 14, 2012 link

I'm not sure what your point is?
The percolation rate is unintentionally affected but the yield still goes down.

Netphilosopher Said:

So, there's maximum extraction - which is valid for any bean any grind any brew method.  You just keep brewing and measuring the produced coffee until there isn't any more produced coffee, and account for all that's extracted - there's no brew ratio, only the TDS that makes it to the cup.

Posted June 14, 2012 link

If by "brewing and brewing" you mean more and more water, that's a brew ratio that is tending toward zero.
If brew ratio and yield correlate negatively then the yield would tend toward a maximum in this case.
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Thu Jun 14, 2012, 7:23pm
Subject: .
 

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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
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Location: California
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Posted Fri Jun 15, 2012, 9:47am
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

Netphilosopher Said:

It's something I've been thinking about and turning over in my head (and attempting in practice).  I figured I'd try and re-create the experiment with percolation method - but it's impossible to apply the same brew parameters to higher brew ratios in a pass-through gravity drip percolation method with same size filter like you can in immersion.

Posted June 14, 2012 link

I'm not sure what experiment you're talking about now. But if you're pushing brew ratios really high why can't you settle for the range that your device is designed to handle?

Netphilosopher Said:

...even though the brew charts don't show it, brew ratio (except for the new charts - by Bunn - they actually show an adjustment in the brew chart around the optimum brew range weirdly spread out).

Posted June 14, 2012 link

Which chart by Bunn? I've seen two on their website and they're different.

Click Here (www-dev.bunnstagingwin.microcomps.com)
Click Here (www.bunn.com)

The first one matches the SCAA chart, the numbers are just changed. The second one appears to imply that more water is lost or retained by the grounds for high and low brew ratios, but not for medium brew ratios where they agree with the SCAA. Why would that be? Given that they are inconsistent on their own website could this chart be a mistake?

Netphilosopher Said:

IF "extraction is extraction", then they SHOULD yield darn near the exact same strength, right?  Same contact time, same grind, same brew ratio, same coffee, same brew chart.

Posted June 14, 2012 link

If they actually extract the same percentage of solubles and retain the same percentage of water then sure, I don't see why not. But what if they don't extract exactly the same?
There are other variables besides the ones you listed.

To be honest I'm not sure what you're trying to do.
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Fri Jun 15, 2012, 3:02pm
Subject: .
 

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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Fri Jun 15, 2012, 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

Netphilosopher Said:

Click Here (www.bunn.com)
...

You can tell the difference with a couple of key points:
Or you can overlay the charts.

Posted June 15, 2012 link

The brew chart is just a graphical depiction of mass conservation. You start with coffee and water and you end up with the same amount of each just distributed differently. If we all used the same mass units and agreed on the same absorption factor we'd all draw the exact same chart. How brew ratio affects extraction is irrelevent.

In reality the absorption factor is variable depending on brew method. The SCAA chart assumes a constant absorption factor. But the Bunn chart implies that the absorption is larger for high and low brew ratios than for medium ratios.

How can that possibly make sense?


Netphilosopher Said:

Well, we all seem to have taken this inferred value - "extraction" - and treated it like a "measured" value.  There is NO WAY to measure extraction exactly.

Posted June 15, 2012 link

I know you mean effective extraction here, not the usual meaning. And I agree with you that measuring it is problematic for the simple reason that "it" isn't defined well. What exactly determines the difference between solubles in the grounds that are extracted and solubles in the grounds that are not extracted? How do you draw that line?

I think you can work out a formula or chart or rule of thumb despite this limitation. Actually, I thought you already had. Doesn't the simple formula you posted a while back work reasonably well?
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Tue Jun 19, 2012, 6:12am
Subject: .
 

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j123
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Posted Sun Jun 24, 2012, 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Coffee Extraction Discussion, Questions for the membership:
 

Netphilosopher Said:

tasted coffee so many times now that's overextracted, but will never backcalculate as overextracted.  The brew ratios and "normal" brew parameters that produced ideal tasting coffee do not result in strengths that the brew charts would predict.

I'm just trying to figure out why I can produce bitter/astringent tasting coffee which calculates as underextracted, or near-ideally extracted.

Posted June 15, 2012 link

I've been following this thread with interest as someone who frequents a pour over cafe but was never able to duplicate the same results at home with all the same equipment/materials with the exception of the grinder.

after many experiments and different levels of extraction, the only thing I could conclude was that I was getting uneven extraction that, as a whole when measured, averaged to appropriate extraction.

do you think that the inherit uneven grind could account for your above observation?
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Jun 25, 2012, 5:16am
Subject: .
 

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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 11:33am
Subject: .
 

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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:10pm
Subject: .
 

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