VictorSM Senior Member Joined: 11 Sep 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Princeton, NJ Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Sep 11, 2011, 11:26am Subject: Re: Hario Mini Mill Slim
How many clicks on a HMMS do you use for a V60 pourover? I've been experimenting for a while and don't have it right. Last month, I was in La Jolla, and visited Bird Rock Roasters. Chuck, the owner, made me a marvelous pourover (Sidama Dara), and I picked his brain as to his recipe. I've been following it since: 320 gms of water at 200 deg F, 25 grams of coffee, infusion time of 30 seconds and total pourover (including the 30 seconds) of 2:20. I use a Hario Buono kettle. However, even with a setting of 11 clicks (which I just made), it takes something like 3:30 for all the water to drip through, which makes me think that the grind is too coarse. So how many clicks to you use?
VictorSM Senior Member Joined: 11 Sep 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Princeton, NJ Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Sep 11, 2011, 1:39pm Subject: Re: Hario Mini Mill Slim
VictorSM Said:
How many clicks on a HMMS do you use for a V60 pourover? I've been experimenting for a while and don't have it right. Last month, I was in La Jolla, and visited Bird Rock Roasters. Chuck, the owner, made me a marvelous pourover (Sidama Dara), and I picked his brain as to his recipe. I've been following it since: 320 gms of water at 200 deg F, 25 grams of coffee, infusion time of 30 seconds and total pourover (including the 30 seconds) of 2:20. I use a Hario Buono kettle. However, even with a setting of 11 clicks (which I just made), it takes something like 3:30 for all the water to drip through, which makes me think that the grind is too coarse. So how many clicks to you use?
How many clicks on a HMMS do you use for a V60 pourover? I've been experimenting for a while and don't have it right. Last month, I was in La Jolla, and visited Bird Rock Roasters. Chuck, the owner, made me a marvelous pourover (Sidama Dara), and I picked his brain as to his recipe. I've been following it since: 320 gms of water at 200 deg F, 25 grams of coffee, infusion time of 30 seconds and total pourover (including the 30 seconds) of 2:20. I use a Hario Buono kettle. However, even with a setting of 11 clicks (which I just made), it takes something like 3:30 for all the water to drip through, which makes me think that the grind is too coarse. So how many clicks to you use?
here's the weird thing. After modifications, the de-clicks change significantly. Unmodified, for pourover or aeropress, I used about 8-9 de-clicks. After modifications, I use more like 13, and where I used to use about 12 for press pot, I'm now using more than 17.
I picked up a 2nd HMMS, and am trying to see if they are similar in grind, but initially I get the same results. Unmodified, pourover or aeropress about 8-9 declicks (on the order of a Ditting 5 or ~500micron average), modified seems to need more burr clearance because of the improved particle distribution.
I can't quite explain it... yet. ;-)
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
here's the weird thing. After modifications, the de-clicks change significantly. Unmodified, for pourover or aeropress, I used about 8-9 de-clicks. After modifications, I use more like 13, and where I used to use about 12 for press pot, I'm now using more than 17.
I picked up a 2nd HMMS, and am trying to see if they are similar in grind, but initially I get the same results. Unmodified, pourover or aeropress about 8-9 declicks (on the order of a Ditting 5 or ~500micron average), modified seems to need more burr clearance because of the improved particle distribution.
Exactly the same for me as well, Netphilosopher. Unmodified, I was using 8-9 clicks for pour-over, 7 for aeropress, and 12-13 for press pot. But like you, I now use 12-13 clicks for pour-over and 17-18 clicks for press pot.
On another note, have you done any studies on optimal extraction parameters? What I mean is that I tend to make single cups of pour overs using 13grams of coffee with 180ml of 85-90C water. I'm beginning to think, though, that I'm not getting a great extraction with such little coffee and water. I do notice a slight improvement in taste when I double the amounts of coffee and water but not enough to warrant doing it for every individual pour over I make.
Exactly the same for me as well, Netphilosopher. Unmodified, I was using 8-9 clicks for pour-over, 7 for aeropress, and 12-13 for press pot. But like you, I now use 12-13 clicks for pour-over and 17-18 clicks for press pot. ...
...On another note, have you done any studies on optimal extraction parameters? What I mean is that I tend to make single cups of pour overs using 13grams of coffee with 180ml of 85-90C water. I'm beginning to think, though, that I'm not getting a great extraction with such little coffee and water. I do notice a slight improvement in taste when I double the amounts of coffee and water but not enough to warrant doing it for every individual pour over I make.
I have only done prelim measurements of extraction on pourover. Most of my brews are with Aeropress.
13g/180ml = 7% brew ratio. That seems a bit strong for a pourover - you're YIELDING 180ml or using 180ml and obtaining about 170g of coffee? Do you dilute the result or drink it straight?
If you're not getting good extraction, you should seriously consider raising your brew water temp to a minimum of 90°C to just off boil or about 95°C.
pourovers can be tricksy because of the slightly variable contact time. There is interaction with grind level and contact time (unless you're using a Clever dripper).
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
I'm using 180ml and obtaining 170g of coffee. I drink it straight. I've spent months experimenting with different ratios and temperatures and I've found that, for my tastes, a 1oz water to 2 grams of coffee at ~88 degrees works best for the pour overs. I am just curious what the numbers say. You have much more experience and knowledge in that area than I, and so was therefore interested to hear your thoughts. For example, my 13g/180ml = 7% brew ratio. What would you recommend as an ideal brew ratio?
I would start with a brew ratio of around 5.5% 6%-6.1%. Around 10g 11g per 180ml. (About 6% brew ratio)
Keep the temperature at 94°C, by the time you're done it won't be that high. Find the right brew level to make the pourover last 2-3 minutes or so.
Basically, keep the brew ratio at or around standard, brew temperature on the higher side of 90-95°C for longer brew methods like a pourover, and vary the grind.
This should yield a beverage around the high side of US standard strength (about 1.3%) depending on your extraction - and you will know if you're underextracting (it will taste not only underdeveloped, it will, by definition, be weak), and it will amplify the strength if you are overextracting.
If properly done, you'll have 165-170g of beverage with 2g - 2.2g of dissolved solids in it.
Edit - went by memory, so modified the brew amounts/ratio after looking at some of my extraction measurements.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
I've seen this before, people use a lower temperature for brewing, and don't end up with the flavor profile they expect. Then, instead of standardizing the brew (or in my case, actually run a designed experiment) and playing with one parameter, they brew cup after cup in a sort of search for the brew method that works.
For independent parameter brew methods, like the Aeropress (inverted) or a Clover (good luck finding one of those machines), where you control the grind, the contact time, the brew ratio, and the brew water temperature, this works well enough - if you're checking the full range of parameters.
For a uncontrolled contact pourover (like a non-Clever, Chemex or Hario), there is some interaction between contact time and grind level. This gets more complicated for an autodrip, where the ideal grind is completely interdependent with ideal contact time. Some methods, like a press pot, are limited by the grind level required for the method.
The most common thing I see is underdeveloped or underextracted coffee. The search-for-the-perfect-brew-method usually trends toward more mellow taste (usually a lower brew temperature), but if you use a standard brew ratio you end up with weak coffee. The answer by search (without checking extraction) is to increase the brew ratio to get the correct strength.
Is this bad coffee? Absolutely not. Thousands of people underextract their coffee every day and are perfectly happy with higher brew ratios - anyone who uses the standard Aeropress instructions of 77°F (170°F) brew water and 10-20 second contact time are underextracting their coffee. Anyone who cold brews coffee under- or incompletely extracts their coffee. I've measured it several times.
Trying different strength coffee on (usually unsuspecting) subjects, I've found that most people seem to like coffee in the standard US range of 1.1% to 1.3% - much more than that and it can get pretty intense. Underextracted but proper strength coffee, as long as you're reaching at least 16.5%-17% extraction, results in a decent cup of coffee in the standard strength range.
If we want to continue the discussion of extraction, strength, brew method - I suggest we move to a new thread or continue any of several threads already started on the subject.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
For independent parameter brew methods, like the Aeropress (inverted) or a Clover (good luck finding one of those machines), where you control the grind, the contact time, the brew ratio, and the brew water temperature, this works well enough - if you're checking the full range of parameters.
Thanks for your detailed posts. The problem that I'm wrestling with is getting the right grind from my HMMS. Just this morning I used my HMMS set at 9 clicks. The beans were Terroir Konga Yigracheffe, water at 200 deg F, 25 gms of beans, 320 gms of water, Hario V60, Hario Buono. The total time it took for all the water to go through was perhaps 4 minutes. The grounds left looked like mud. I thought that the coffee tasted very good, but it was missing a lot of the subtlety. I tried the 5.5% ratio with some Bird Rock Columbian Decaf last night (18 gms of coffee and 327 gms of 200 deg water) and an HMMS at 9 clicks. While it tasted good, I thought that it was too weak. When I've tried to back off the number of clicks to 12 the coffee still took a long time to go through (on the order of 3:30) but it tasted weak. Any suggestions?
Just wanted to say thanks to all who posted their preferred amount of 'de-clicks'!
I received my mini mill in the mail (I heart alliteration) yesterday and this has been a fantastic starting point. Been rather pleased with this even in the course settings.
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