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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,402
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Fri May 9, 2014, 11:25am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

I see, you're assuming that I'm claiming that an uninsulated press pot is retaining heat this well. I'm not using a press pot. I've been doing these steeps in a stainless steel vacuum bottle and throttling the temperature decline by adjusting the lid. For temperature measurement I embedded an inexpensive thermistor that is accurate to better than 1C out of the box but which I calibrated manually to improve its accuracy.

Posted May 9, 2014 link

Ah ha!  And I say again, ah ha!  The fog is lifted, the glass is clarified, understanding dawns.  

It was my understanding that an ordinary, glass cafetiere was suggested for the long steep method proposed in this thread, so that's what I tested.    

Thanks John,
Rich
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 719
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Mon May 12, 2014, 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

boar_d_laze Said:

It was my understanding that an ordinary, glass cafetiere was suggested for the long steep method proposed in this thread, so that's what I tested.

Posted May 9, 2014 link

You're right, but I wanted to be able to exercise some control since the rate of temperature decline might not be the same in different environments. I was hoping to be able to match what Mark had done but as is often the case with recipes, the recipe author doesn't know these sort of details. He just knows what he's doing. I thought about borrowing a Bodum press from a friend but then I'd still be wondering if I was really doing everything the same.

I will try this some more. In addition to wanting to replicate Mark's approach I'm curious about steeping in a broader sense. But I do wish I'd had some hint of success as the results of my attempts so far have been pretty bad.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,402
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon May 12, 2014, 3:27pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

I will try this some more. In addition to wanting to replicate Mark's approach I'm curious about steeping in a broader sense. But I do wish I'd had some hint of success as the results of my attempts so far have been pretty bad.

Posted May 12, 2014 link

There are never enough good ways to make good coffee, and it would be nice if you could make Mark's long, hot steep work.  Let us know how it goes.  

Rich
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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 719
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 7:27am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

I wanted to do a long steep and sample at intervals but I was concerned about altering the course of the brew. So instead I did five steeps, otherwise as identical as possible except for when I terminated them.

water: 345g, equilibrated at ~93C in a vacuum bottle with embedded temp probe
coffee: 23g, LIDO @ 1.0 turn, Ritual Recanto Brasil, folded into the water
steep length: 3 min, 6 min, 10 min, 20 min, 40 min

Brief tasting notes:
3 min: Tasted like my Aeropress coffee. The aroma and flavor actually fit the package description (brown sugar, dried peaches, walnuts).
6 min: Even better, more balanced, good body, wonderful. Maybe I should steep longer in my AP?
10 min: The aroma was harder to discern and the brown sugar flavor was replaced by a monotonic sweetness, like confectioner's sugar. Very smooth and drinkable.
20 min: The aroma was only a memory. The coffee was smooth but a bit bland. Cloying sweetness had receded somewhat.
40 min: Smooth, drinkable, unobjectionable but also unmemorable.

This was an interesting exercise but I'm still searching for that perfect long steep...

jpender: steep_3-40_recanto.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 719
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 7:43am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

I tried this again, same everything except with a different coffee.
Instead of the Ritual Recanto I used Ritual Esperanca, also Brazilian.

I'm posting this because it is an illustration of how different coffees extract differently.
Even with what appears to be such similar coffees it is clear that they extract at different rates tend toward different terminal extraction levels.

The sample for the 40 min Esp. steep leaked out of the tray in the oven and was lost. The 6 min Rec. steep appears higher than one might guess it should be. This could have been a measurement outlier (I only took one sample per brew) or it might be that I did something different with that brew that caused it to extract faster.

jpender: TDS-recanto-esperanca.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,402
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 9:27am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

Thanks for carrying on with the testing John.  

Your results are interesting even though they don't align with Mark's.  Mark clearly knows the difference between good and bad, so I suspect he's either doing something differently.  But what?  Quien sabe?  Perhaps he's using "livelier" roasts?  Or maybe it's just one of those de gustibus things.

What were the roast levels on your Brazilians?  From your flavor description of the Rituial Recanto, my guess is FC/FC+ ish.

We haven't tried too many different coffees with our ice drip tower -- which is a very long drip process -- but some of our best results have been with Brazilians roasted Dropped just before 2dCs.  A 45drip/min ice-drip Fazenda Yellow Bourbon comes out somewhere in between your description of the 6min and 10min Ritual Recantos.  

The striking features of anything and everything we've brewed in the ice-drip include "fundament" as well as sweetness.  What impressions did you get about center of the tasting-wheel "bottom" (or, for lack of a better term, "generic coffeeness") in your test runs?

6 min: Even better, more balanced, good body, wonderful. Maybe I should steep longer in my AP?

And/or grind finer?  I'd give each and both a try.      

Thanks again,
Rich
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 193
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 11:23am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

Brief tasting notes:
3 min: Tasted like my Aeropress coffee. The aroma and flavor actually fit the package description (brown sugar, dried peaches, walnuts).
6 min: Even better, more balanced, good body, wonderful. Maybe I should steep longer in my AP?
10 min: The aroma was harder to discern and the brown sugar flavor was replaced by a monotonic sweetness, like confectioner's sugar. Very smooth and drinkable.
20 min: The aroma was only a memory. The coffee was smooth but a bit bland. Cloying sweetness had receded somewhat.
40 min: Smooth, drinkable, unobjectionable but also unmemorable.

This was an interesting exercise but I'm still searching for that perfect long steep...

Posted May 15, 2014 link

According to your measurements you hit the target TDS range a little after 5 minutes, so with the much slowed temperature decline of your device you may not be getting any benefit from steeping significantly longer. The idea isn't specifically to steep for a long time, nor a specific time, but to hit the desired flavour/sweetness, hopefully before the coffee is too cool to enjoy (typically this is achievable, depending on preference in that respect).  The longer steeps may just come with the territory of a declining temperature, or other factors pertinent to a specific brewer. No doubt aroma dies off with time.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 719
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 11:31am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

From Mark's numerous posts about steeping for 30-40 minutes I expected it to be easier to emulate. Now granted, I'm not using any of the brew devices he is using. And it's possible that's important for success. But it could be something else, I just don't know.

I don't roast my own coffee and I can only say that the two Brazilians were "medium". The Recanto (photo) may have been a tiny bit darker than the Esperanca, but if so it was just barely.

Generic coffeeness? I'm not sure what you're asking. All of them tasted like coffee (LOL). I freely admit that I'm a rank amateur when it comes to evaluating coffee taste. I know what I like though.

boar_d_laze Said:

And/or grind finer?  I'd give each and both a try.

Posted May 15, 2014 link

I asked Mark "Why brew for 40 minutes?" and he replied "to hit a 22% immersion yield". And I was thinking: there are other ways to get there, assuming that's really where you want to go. Grind finer is one of them. Temperature is another important variable. But a particular extraction level does not equate unambiguously with taste. Could it be that it isn't possible to achieve the same flavor profile in a shorter steep that reaches 22% extraction?

As an aside, talking about a specific extraction level (e.g. 22%) is very confusing since there isn't a consensus about how to calculate it.

-----------
Ritual Recanto Brasil

jpender: recanto_beans.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 193
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 11:37am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

As an aside, talking about a specific extraction level (e.g. 22%) is very confusing since there isn't a consensus about how to calculate it.

-----------
Ritual Recanto Brasil

Posted May 15, 2014 link

Well, that's a whole different topic & not one suitable for deconstruction here.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 719
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 12:24pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

MWJB Said:

According to your measurements you hit the target TDS range a little after 5 minutes, so with the much slowed temperature decline of your device you may not be getting any benefit from steeping significantly longer. The idea isn't specifically to steep for a long time, nor a specific time, but to hit the desired flavour/sweetness, hopefully before the coffee is too cool to enjoy (typically this is achievable, depending on preference in that respect).  The longer steeps may just come with the territory of a declining temperature, or other factors pertinent to a specific brewer. No doubt aroma dies off with time.

Posted May 15, 2014 link

Tell me if I'm reading this correctly: If the temperature falls quickly enough it will retard the rate of extraction necessitating a longer steep to reach your target. And if you can insulate your pot sufficiently you may be able to get the same coffee in 5 or 6 minutes. Is that what you're saying?

MWJB Said:

Well, that's a whole different topic & not one suitable for deconstruction here.

Posted May 15, 2014 link

We're talking about a specific extraction target so it makes sense to define what that means. By either of two calculation methods I use I never hit 22%. But since we're talking about your brew method, it's your version of 22% that is meaningful in this context. You haven't stated your method explicitly (or I missed it) but I believe you are calculating extraction by assuming the dose is 4% less than what the scale reads. Is that correct?
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