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emperor1563
Senior Member


Joined: 2 May 2014
Posts: 5
Location: scarborough
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 2:05pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

No worries, I actually didn't notice the bump, a lot of what as been said in the thread so far is a little over my head to be honest, but there has been quite a lot I've been able to take from it, there's a shop round the corner from me that's brilliant for coffee, they have speciality coffee's, they used to have shelves full of different coffee which they'd grind for you when you buy it specific for your machine, I think I remember I loved the brazillian one, can't remember the full name of it, but unfortunately, they don't seem to do it any more, a couple of the stores in town have closed, and this one doesn't sell coffee any more, I'm a little bit gutted, which is partly why I've decided to try and grind my own. I think it's a shame because I think the coffee is so much better than it is in a few of the well known giants. I do feel I've made a bit of an error here though, I watched a video of someone making a cafetiere and made it the same, it was a full one, I'm not prepared to waste any, I've just started my third mug, and there's more still in it!
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 711
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

Mark, I'm sorry you feel that way. I know I can be aggressive in my way of questioning. It isn't personal. I just want to understand what's going on. I was hoping that with dialogue I could figure it out and try again.

I know you use different brewing devices than what I used and they are of larger volume. If volume itself is an issue then I can switch to a larger container. If the issue is temperature stability that can be handled even in a small container. Since you don't know what the temperature profile is, for my test I intentionally accelerated the temperature decline to be somewhere between no change and the chart from the Sowdon website. By choosing it to go from 90C to 80C in 40 minutes I may have guessed wrong, but I had to make some sort of guess.

jpender: sowden_softbrew_coffee_infusion_design_george_filter_making_howto_06.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,318
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

MWJB Said:

If I were to play devil's advocate I'd ask if "acidy notes" are specifically a product of origin, does coffee that is extracted to a sweeter, balanced state not still represent its origin?

Posted May 8, 2014 link

Not to be overly technical, but this is a compound question which not only distorts my opinion as offered, but assumes other "facts," not offered.  As such it cannot be answered simply.

I never said that "acidy notes" are specifically a product of origin.  However, to the extent that certain acidy notes ARE a product of origin, and to the extent that those notes are "disappeared" by roast and/or brew techniques, the coffee has lost at least some of its "origin" character.  

Furthermore, it's my experience that "sweetness" and "balance," can co-exist with varietal/origin acidy notes when coffees are roasted and brewed appropriately for that purpose.  

If the acidy notes are only prevalent at certain extractions are they not then relative to that, as much as anything else?

I neither said nor implied "at certain extractions."  You've either misread me, or created a straw man.    

Of course without tasting what you are describing, it's hard to answer that.

True.

John clearly wrote the coffee was at 80C at 40minutes, you have asbestos for skin if you find 80C lukewarm.

80C in the pot is not 80C in the cup.  As it happens, no asbestos in fact, but you're not the first to offer the description.  I do prefer my hot drinks hotter than most people.

No matter how clearly John wrote 80C, I'm taking the temperature with some degree of caution and skepticism.  It's a measurement I'll take later, and will report back having done so.  Just to make sure we're all on the same page, should I use 1L of hot water? 900ml?  Or 400ml as you suggested to Emperor?  

Do you reheat your espresso?

No.  
  • I begin most mornings with three or four double shots of straight espresso;  
  • The shots are brewed at around 93-94C;
  • Through a preheated pf;
  • With an approximately 30sec pull time;
  • Into a freshly warmed cup;
  • I take the first sip within 30sec, and usually finish the entire shot within 2min after that; although,
  • More often, I take the first sip within 15sec, and (so my wife tells me) finish within 90sec.    

Your question raises others:
  • What's the relevance of the inquiry? And
  • What's your espresso ritual?

The spirit & wording of your last two lines seem a little at odds? You're saying it's subjective & not inherently wrong, but it is nevertheless wrong to you and you are happy for others to be influenced by that perception? As to whether the results are what you think they are, or not, still remains to be seen.

The spirit and wording of my last two sentences are not at odds with one another.  It's possible for something to simultaneously be a matter of taste, and something I do not like, without me exhorting others to follow my lead.  If I thought mine were the only correct opinion, I wouldn't qualify it as subjective.

Can I ask how long your ("outstanding" & "very pleasant") Yama Drip Tower takes, for what it is "worth"?

Yes.  You may.  For the little it's worth, it takes around 3 hours, 100g of coffee, and at least 1100ml of ice and water to brew 1L of coffee concentrate.  The volume of ice and water is very much approximations; brewing is discontinued when the desired volume of concentrate is achieved; and there is at least some ice and water left in the top vessel, as well as a great deal of (unmeasured) water left in the grinds beaker.

After brewing the concentrate is decanted into a storage bottle less prone to breakage than the brew flask, and chilled in the refrigerator -- typically overnight.  It is decanted, when we are ready to use it; and typically poured over ice, then further diluted with water, other flavoring (Linda prefers artificially sweetened Vanilla Torani syrup; I prefer a little syrup and Bourbon, Cognac or  rum) and real cream.  

Needless to say, I engage in other activities while the cold drip tower is a-drip.  

Like all cold brewing, the cold drip tower is not a good brew method when immediate or near immediate gratification is desired.  It's not something I start when I want a cup of coffee NOW, nor is it a method I would suggest to another for a similar purpose.  

I misunderstood your second post to Emperor.  I thought you were responding to his request for a mundane method.  

I usually have drip coffee in the morning...

Consequently, I believed your recommended 30-40min brew time was a typo rather than a serious suggestion.  That you were suggesting the 30-40min method as a weekend, take your time sort of thing, took me by surprise when you finally articulated it in a later post in response to John.      

None of my "first cup in the morning" methods -- whether espresso, iced-coffee made from already brewed concentrate, pour over, press or siphon -- takes more than five or six minutes from first step (e.g., weighing the whole beans) to cup.  I expect that's more typical than not, even for geeks.
.  

Doing nothing for half an hour or busying yourself with day-to-day activities doesn't sound like a massive chore to me, so I'm not sure what/how the extra effort, you feel that is involved, sacrifices any "worth". If you like the coffee you brew in a French press, good on you, I'd probably like it too...but let's perhaps substitute the imagined negative connotations for real world evaluation?

Let's.  

A method based on a 30-40min steep is an unusual suggestion for the real world, given the "morning" context of the request.  My comment that I didn't think it was worth the wait was not only fair, but about the coffee, and not at all about you.      

Whilst I realise you are compelled by forces beyond your control to summarily contradict everything I say...

There's no need to stoop to insult.  If you want to continue the conversation, please stick with substance.  

Rich
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 711
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 8:20pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

boar_d_laze Said:

No matter how clearly John wrote 80C, I'm taking the temperature with some degree of caution and skepticism.  It's a measurement I'll take later, and will report back having done so.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

What do you mean? Do you think my thermometer is broken??
I'm asking with a smile on my face because I think you're probably saying something else here.

boar_d_laze Said:

There's no need to stoop to insult.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

I agree with this but unfortunately there's an air of hostility in this thread now. I'm sorry if I helped to cause this. It wasn't my intention.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 711
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 9:15pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

Another attempt at The Big Steep:

23.1g of Ritual Esperanca Brasil ground at 1 turn from factory zero on my LIDO
346g of Hetch Hetchy water, 30s off the boil in a nice big tea kettle filled with about 1.5 liters of water

I increased the brew ratio to 66.8g/kg in the hope that whatever was produced might be drinkable for me.

I did not preheat the brewing vessel. The temperature of the water in the brew device was initially 96.0C. I added the coffee, carefully folded it in, and then shut it closed tightly to preserve heat. The temperature was 94.4 once the coffee was incorporated. From there it fell to 94.1C after 4 minutes, 92.7C after 10 minutes, and was at 89C at 40 minutes when I decanted the coffee.

It was a very cloudy brew and the astringency was significant. Despite the high temperature and higher brew ratio it tasted weak and watery. The comparison to freeze-dried Folgers or gas station coffee was even stronger. I hated it. I would use this coffee to punish criminals.

But what about the extraction? The whole point of this particular exercise was to push the temperature profile up to see what I could get. My guess is that the extraction is more about grind and coffee choice, but I could be wrong.

I don't have a refractometer so I have to wait. The oven takes time...



EDIT:
The two samples read 1.35% and 1.37%. Taking the average, that translates into 20.6% if you calculate extraction as total dissolved solids divided by dose, or 21.5% if you use the the dry mass of the dose and assume it is 4% less. An extraction of 20.6%/21.5% is a lot closer to 22% but it wasn't a success in terms of a long steep since it tasted so poorly. I am a little perplexed that it seemed so thin.




Chart shows temp profile of latest try (blue), earlier try (red) and predicted profile in a Sowdon brewer from their website (green):

jpender: TheBigSteep_temp_profile.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 188
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Fri May 9, 2014, 1:36am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

boar_d_laze Said:

A method based on a 30-40min steep is an unusual suggestion for the real world, given the "morning" context of the request.  My comment that I didn't think it was worth the wait was not only fair, but about the coffee, and not at all about you.      

There's no need to stoop to insult.  If you want to continue the conversation, please stick with substance.  

Rich

Posted May 8, 2014 link

You have been busy carefully editing whilst I slept, I'll obviously have to do less of that! ;-)

The major thrust of your comments are aimed at identifying hypothetical defects in the flavour & temperature of my brew. I even concede myself, that a long steep is not universally practical, nor desirable - we don't disagree there. I also recommend that you brew to your individual preference, if you want a more "hands on approach", or to target certain qualities.

You changed "personal invective" to read "insult", I'd also love to stick to substance...but it's not me that keeps dragging the thread off point.

*I brew coffee, giving detail of method, subjective & objective assessments.

*John brewed coffee and has offered substantially different results on both counts. Yet, it is John's substantially different result that you use as a basis to imagine up defects in my brew.

*You then hypothesise on additional flaws & throw them in the mix for good measure (abnormally cold, lack of origin character).

You are not talking about the coffee I brew - your entirely speculative comments are aimed at publicly denunciating my ability to brew & taste. If that's not personal invective, I don't know what is. We have differing ideas as to what constitutes "conversation".

You don't have to like what I like (though you currently have no firm basis for assuming you don't like it), but a little benefit of the doubt, at the very least, would be courteous.
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 188
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Fri May 9, 2014, 2:26am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

Another attempt at The Big Steep:...

Posted May 8, 2014 link

Well you have shifted parameters quite a way now & are still coming in shy on the TDS.

As you mention that your preferred TDS for an immersion brew is between 1.7% and 1.8% (seemingly no more or less atypical than my target, but certainly the other side of the median) perhaps you should aim for corresponding TDS?

EDIT: You might also try adding the water on top of the coffee, this might bolster the mouthfeel? I do it the other way round as I feel it gives better clarity, but it shouldn't make a significant difference to achievable TDS.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 711
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Fri May 9, 2014, 10:15am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

MWJB Said:

As you mention that your preferred TDS for an immersion brew is between 1.7% and 1.8% (seemingly no more or less atypical than my target, but certainly the other side of the median) perhaps you should aim for corresponding TDS?

Posted May 9, 2014 link

I considered that, but I've enjoyed plenty of coffee that isn't as strong.

This morning I brewed two cups, targeting 1.25% strength. The first was in an inverted Aeropress and the second was in The Big Steep device. Both of these were short steeps (3 min):

-------------------------------------------------
(1) Inverted Aeropress
14.9g (LIDO @ 1) of coffee, in first
225.5g of water at 92.5C, added second

Based on past experience the steep temperature was likely in the upper 80s. I usually get about 19% extraction from the AP so this should have produced coffee at 1.25%, give or take a little. It tasted great, nice full body, a little muted in flavor which seems to often be a characteristic of my Aeropress coffee: smooth and a little boring but no big defects.
-------------------------------------------------
(2) The Big Steep device
354g of water, in first (settled at 90.6C)
23.0g (LIDO @ 1) of coffee, added, folded in, temperature fell to 89.5C.

I steeped for 3 minutes (final temp 88.0C). This temperature profile is within 1C of the red line in my chart for the 3 minutes of steeping. Since some of the grounds were still in suspension I decanted through paper. It tasted virtually the same as what I'd just made in my Aeropress.
-------------------------------------------------

So while I do enjoy stronger coffee it doesn't appear that strength is the main issue.

I have a question for you:
Have you taken small samples of your long steeps at intervals to measure %TDS with your refractometer and, if so, what does that curve look like?
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,318
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Fri May 9, 2014, 10:39am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

John,

It's not that I don't trust you, but I like to check surprising results.  Maybe I shouldn't have ben surprised, but wotthehell, wotthehell, I've got plenty of curiosity, cafetieres and water.  

With a room temperature of 77F, I heated approximately 1L water in a BonaVita PID controlled kettle to a readout temp of 200F, poured water to the top metal band of a Bodum "8cup," borosilicate cafatiere, read the temperature of the water in the cafatiere immediately after pouring as 195F (91C, calculated to the nearest 0.5C) on a freeze/boil calibrated, small dial, bi-metal, inexpensive, "instant read" thermometer.  

Covered the carafe so that the plunger's filter-screen barely touched the water;

Turned the top so that plastic inner liner was oriented for maximum "seal."

Removed the cap and measured 150F (65.5C, calculated to the nearest 0.5C) after 20 minutes;

Replaced the cap, waited another 20 mintues; and

Removed the cap and measured 135F (57.0C, calculated to the nearest 0.5C) after 40 minutes.  

While these results were more in line with my expectations, there's a fairly high possibility that the thermometer was less than accurate.  Somehow, possibly due to the nefarious agency of a close relation, my two good thermapens and my two food thermocouples have disappeared.

I'm going to order some new stuff and re-measure.  

Rich
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 711
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Fri May 9, 2014, 11:13am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

boar_d_laze Said:

It's not that I don't trust you, but I like to check surprising results.  Maybe I shouldn't have ben surprised, but wotthehell, wotthehell, I've got plenty of curiosity, cafetieres and water.

Posted May 9, 2014 link

I see, you're assuming that I'm claiming that an uninsulated press pot is retaining heat this well. I'm not using a press pot. I've been doing these steeps in a stainless steel vacuum bottle and throttling the temperature decline by adjusting the lid. For temperature measurement I embedded an inexpensive thermistor that is accurate to better than 1C out of the box but which I calibrated manually to improve its accuracy.
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