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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Wed May 7, 2014, 11:23am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

I haven't spent 48 hours on this. I just wrote a few posts.

Look, I tried this once before and it underextracted. I don't want to simply repeat that failure. At the time you couldn't tell me why it was so low, just that it should have been higher. Clearly something was different but your procedure wasn't detailed enough to help determine what that was.

--------------------------------------
EDIT:

An attempt.

19.1g of coffee ground in a LIDO set to 1 turn from factory zero
341.6g of water (56g/kg ratio)

I added water just off the boil to the device and then waited for the temperature to settle down to ~90C. Right before I added the coffee it measured 89.5C.

I added the coffee and gently folded in the grounds so that they were beneath the bloom. I adjusted the lid so that the brew temperature would slowly decline. It was 86.7C after 5 minutes, 84.1C after 10 minutes and 80.1C at 40 minutes.

I decanted the liquid, leaving the grounds behind, and filtered the coffee through paper. There was very little silt caught by the filter.

The resultant coffee was clean looking but slightly cloudy. I could see through it but it was not brilliantly clear. I quickly took two 15ml samples for dehydration.

I tasted the coffee at 62C. What struck me immediately was a roasted aroma and flavor. It was right up front. This taste wasn't unpleasant, it wasn't bitter and I have tasted this before in a breakfast cafe setting. It was okay but wasn't a flavor component I seek in coffee. The second thing I tasted was a note of sweetness. It was mild yet quite distinct and one dimensional. For a moment I felt like I was drinking the best instant coffee with a sugar pack added that I've ever had. It wasn't bad tasting, but it reminded me of that combination that I've had on occasion in a hotel while traveling, or when backpacking: roastiness + sugar sweetness.

The mouthfeel was rich, thick, viscous. But the taste was fairly weak. The combination of the mouthfeel and the taste averaged out to the sense that I was drinking something watery. I would never recognize this coffee as being from the same beans I've been enjoying so much this week.

I tasted it at 62C , 51C and 25C. Other than an off-note in the middle temperature, something I often perceive with coffee around that temperature, it tasted basically the same both hot and cold.

Out of the oven came the two dried samples and they agreed with each other: 1.03% and 1.04% TDS. That means the immersion extraction was 18.8% (by dose) or 19.6% (assuming dry weight is 4% less).

So it extracted a little more than last time but still well short of 22%. I thought the finer grind would make a bigger difference. I thought that keeping the temperature from falling below 80C would help. But instead I ended up weak coffee just like last time.
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,277
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
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Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 8:21am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

... The resultant coffee was clean looking but slightly cloudy. I could see through it but it was not brilliantly clear. I quickly took two 15ml samples for dehydration.

I tasted the coffee at 62C. What struck me immediately was a roasted aroma and flavor. It was right up front. This taste wasn't unpleasant, it wasn't bitter and I have tasted this before in a breakfast cafe setting. It was okay but wasn't a flavor component I seek in coffee. The second thing I tasted was a note of sweetness. It was mild yet quite distinct and one dimensional. For a moment I felt like I was drinking the best instant coffee with a sugar pack added that I've ever had. It wasn't bad tasting, but it reminded me of that combination that I've had on occasion in a hotel while traveling, or when backpacking: roastiness + sugar sweetness.

The mouthfeel was rich, thick, viscous. But the taste was fairly weak. The combination of the mouthfeel and the taste averaged out to the sense that I was drinking something watery. I would never recognize this coffee as being from the same beans I've been enjoying so much this week....

Posted May 7, 2014 link

Except for the taste weakness and cloudiness you noted, your results sound similar to those we get with our Yama Cold Brew Drip Tower.  

The Yama's results, taken by themselves, supply an outstanding, and extremely low-acid base for iced coffee; one which may also be diluted and warmed with hot water to make a very pleasant cup of hot joe.  But, as you said, it's nearly all roast and very little bean; so we brew with simple roasts of relatively inexpensive beans, and reserve the results for iced coffee.  

"Ice drip" coffee making is rather more like other cold brew methods than less, especially as to low-acid.  Perhaps its fair to say that extended brewing times reduce acids to the point where the coffee characteristics (i.e., most of its varietal character)  coming from "acidy" notes are lost.  Perhaps it's also fair to say that other extended brewing methods -- even when done "warm" -- are bound by the same limitation.  

We like press (cafetiere) coffee quite a lot, have a lot of presses, and use them frequently.  One of the best things about them, as a class, is the way they highlight the acidy fruit notes of fruity coffees.   I don't think the (described) results from the extended steep are worth the wait for luke-warm coffee.  On the other hand, I'm not quibbling with Mark about the purely subjective evaluations of what does or doesn't taste "good;" and whether or not what it takes to make coffee in any given way is "worth it."  

Let's just say that Mark's method is not worth it to me.

Rich
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 8:32am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

An attempt.

19.1g of coffee ground in a LIDO set to 1 turn from factory zero
341.6g of water (56g/kg ratio)

I added water just off the boil to the device and then waited for the temperature to settle down to ~90C. Right before I added the coffee it measured 89.5C.
I added the coffee and gently folded in the grounds so that they were beneath the bloom. I adjusted the lid so that the brew temperature would slowly decline. It was 86.7C after 5 minutes, 84.1C after 10 minutes and 80.1C at 40 minutes.

I decanted the liquid, leaving the grounds behind, and filtered the coffee through paper. There was very little silt caught by the filter.

The resultant coffee was clean looking but slightly cloudy. I could see through it but it was not brilliantly clear. I quickly took two 15ml samples for
dehydration.

The mouthfeel was rich, thick, viscous. But the taste was fairly weak. The combination of the mouthfeel and the taste averaged out to the sense that I was drinking something watery. I would never recognize this coffee as being from the same beans I've been enjoying so much this week.

Out of the oven came the two dried samples and they agreed with each other: 1.03% and 1.04% TDS.

So it extracted a little more than last time but still well short of 22%. I thought the finer grind would make a bigger difference. I thought that keeping the temperature from falling below 80C would help. But instead I ended up weak coffee just like last time.

Posted May 7, 2014 link

I'm not sure why you waited for the water to cool before adding the coffee, I don't suppose it made a huge difference given that you might have hit another 2degC, but brewing at smaller volumes might be working against you.

Not sure why you filtered it either, I wrote several times in this thread that this shouldn't be necessary, it was initially suggested because of the use of a blade grinder...the OP seems a looong time ago now though. It will inevitably reduce body. Can I ask what you used as a filter, papers have a marked effect when doing this.

You are clear in your assessment that you are underextracting (relative to target), so I don't see the point of taste comparisons. I also don't see why after 40minutes you are still hitting yields that most folk hit in under 10minutes.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 8:58am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Except for the taste weakness and cloudiness you noted, your results sound similar to those we get with our Yama Cold Brew Drip Tower.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

That's interesting.

For my usual morning cup I steep at a similar temperature but for only 2-3 minutes and at a much higher brew ratio (91 g/kg). My little 6 1/2 ounce cups of coffee are usually around 1.7-1.8%. This morning I was paying more attention than usual and I realized that the roasty flavor I'd primarily sensed in the long steep brew was there in my morning cup. But it was just one small voice in a chorus. Could it be that the long steep would have tasted better if I'd simply used a higher brew ratio, maybe 65 g/kg instead of 56?

The other thing I wondered is if Mark is using coffee that is more extractable. When I did that 80C brew water experiment a while back, the dark roast coffee extracted to 25% and the lighter roast to 23%. Maybe the coffee I'm using right now (Ritual Esperanca Brasil) has less to give?
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 9:13am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

MWJB Said:

I'm not sure why you waited for the water to cool before adding the coffee

Posted May 8, 2014 link

Because that's the temperature you specified when I asked. You said 90 2C.
I could have set it to almost any temperature under 100C.

MWJB Said:

brewing at smaller volumes might be working against you.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

An unstated part of your recipe: Minimum volume.
This is why I kept pressing you for detail. It's so common for recipes to have hidden assumptions.

MWJB Said:

Not sure why you filtered it either, I wrote several times in this thread that this shouldn't be necessary, it was initially suggested because of the use of a blade grinder...the OP seems a looong time ago now though. It will inevitably reduce body. Can I ask what you used as a filter, papers have a marked effect when doing this.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

I didn't want grit in my cup. But the paper Aeropress filter caught virtually nothing. The body was fine, it was the %TDS that was low.

MWJB Said:

I also don't see why after 40minutes you are still hitting yields that most folk hit in under 10minutes.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

That's the question, isn't it? Why brew for 40 minutes?
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 9:22am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Perhaps its fair to say that extended brewing times reduce acids to the point where the coffee characteristics (i.e., most of its varietal character)  coming from "acidy" notes are lost.  Perhaps it's also fair to say that other extended brewing methods -- even when done "warm" -- are bound by the same limitation.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

 


Hi Rich,

Increased extraction, as I have achieved beyond John's attempt, contains more acids, not less. CGAs extract pretty much in proportion to dissolved solids overall, you have to significantly drop temperature, starting much cooler, to make real headway in reducing their content. Nevertheless, coffee does seem to taste more acidic at lower levels of extraction (this is perhaps where you like your French press, as many do, including myself on many occasions), so CGAs are contributing more than just acidic notes.

If I were to play devil's advocate I'd ask if "acidy notes" are specifically a product of origin, does coffee that is extracted to a sweeter, balanced state not still represent its origin? If the acidy notes are only prevalent at certain extractions are they not then relative to that, as much as anything else? Of course without tasting what you are describing, it's hard to answer that.

French presses don't accentuate acidity, they're just pots, they just sit still & hold coffee & water until a human decides they do otherwise. We as the brewers decide on the flavour profile & what is or isn't accentuated.

John clearly wrote the coffee was at 80C at 40minutes, you have asbestos for skin if you find 80C lukewarm. Do you reheat your espresso?

boar_d_laze Said:

We like press (cafetiere) coffee quite a lot, have a lot of presses, and use them frequently.  One of the best things about them, as a class, is the way they highlight the acidy fruit notes of fruity coffees.   I don't think the (described) results from the extended steep are worth the wait for luke-warm coffee.  On the other hand, I'm not quibbling with Mark about the purely subjective evaluations of what does or doesn't taste "good;" and whether or not what it takes to make coffee in any given way is "worth it."  

Let's just say that Mark's method is not worth it to me.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

The spirit & wording of your last two lines seem a little at odds? You're saying it's subjective & not inherently wrong, but it is nevertheless wrong to you and you are happy for others to be influenced by that perception? As to whether the results are what you think they are, or not, still remains to be seen.

Can I ask how long your ("outstanding" & "very pleasant") Yama Drip Tower takes, for what it is "worth"?

Doing nothing for half an hour or busying yourself with day-to-day activities doesn't sound like a massive chore to me, so I'm not sure what/how the extra effort, you feel that is involved, sacrifices any "worth". If you like the coffee you brew in a French press, good on you, I'd probably like it too...but let's perhaps substitute the imagined negative connotations for real world evaluation? Whilst I realise you are compelled by forces beyond your control to summarily contradict everything I say, If we all just start stating what we think might happen in an imagined scenario, or of each other, it's just going to make this thread a chore to read for any hardy souls who have displayed enough stamina to still be reading. Poor old Emporer1563 just wanted some friendly advice, he must now think he's trapped in some never ending, dull, nightmare...if he's bothered to check back...

Regards, Mark.
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 11:46am
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

jpender Said:

An unstated part of your recipe: Minimum volume. This is why I kept pressing you for detail. It's so common for recipes to have hidden assumptions.

Posted May 8, 2014 link

May 3rd: "A pot smaller than 1l (I use 49.5g to 900 of water in a 1l pot) might cool too quickly to hit this preference...again, taste as you go."

May 6th: "No, in a 40 minute steep of 900g water & 50g of coffee, lid & plunger kept on the pot (Bodum Brazil), the coffee is still hot, it doesn't need reheating, ..."

May 7th, in direct answer to your request for details: "Usually 49.5g of coffee to 900g of water. Single wall Bodum Brazil glass cafetiere."

"Hidden assumptions"?...Really?...I mean, really? :-o

Now, I certainly expect to be taken to task & to have to rationally explain my claims (despite the fact you already have CBC documentation in your possession that, whilst not so extreme, supports some principles to which I allude), but if we are going to make this thread such a thoroughly interminable chore to wade through, may I please ask that you at least do me the courtesy of paying attention? In this thread & others you repeatedly excercise a knack for creative editing/interpretation, taking only what suits your outlook from what is clearly written information in front of you.

jpender Said:

That's the question, isn't it? Why brew for 40 minutes?

Posted May 8, 2014 link

...erm...to hit a 22% (+/-0.5%) immersion yield. I may have mentioned that too....more than once...in the last year...in threads in which you have been a participant/antagonist/contributor. ;-)

I'm going for a lie down now, might not be in a rush to return to this thread for a while...it's like deja vu...all over again...
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emperor1563
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Joined: 2 May 2014
Posts: 5
Location: scarborough
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

Sorry it took so long, been so busy as of late, I have had to put up with what I noticed more and more to be bad coffee, I don't really have the expertise that many of you have, I can't really notice the different flavours in the coffee, even if the coffee has tasting notes on it, I can't tell, but I do know if it tastes good, and what I've had out of the filter coffee machine since grinding my own beans, is just damn right weak, it was like a light coloured murky looking water which I was trying to tell myself was okay. Now I've accepted that it just isn't good enough, I took to taking some of your advice, and figured out a couple of things myself as I can't afford the manual grinder just yet, I just made myself a cafetiere, I noticed that it seems to help with my grinder, if I grind for a short while, pull the cup off, shake it around to disperse some of the uneven grounds and repeat that process, it seems to grind a little more evenly (I could be wrong there, it just seemed to work), and for the first time, it seems to have worked much better. I've not had chance to review all the posts yet, but I'll have a look through them now, while I have my second cup! thanks to everyone that has taken the time to reply, I wouldn't consider myself someone who knows what they're doing with coffee, but I do love coffee, and preferably, I like it fresh!
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CoffeeRon
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CoffeeRon
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 749
Location: Tacoma Wa.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Wega Lyra, Europiccola(still...
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Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

We all start somewhere. 6 years ago I thought grinding french roast at the grocery store was the bomb. Then my coffee journey began- now I wouldn't touch the stuff! And even now I just seem to keep raising the bar.
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu May 8, 2014, 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Grinding my beans
 

Emporer1563, I do apologise if my comment seemed like a bump for you to check in, it wasn't meant that way. I was just concerned that we might have frightened you off! :-)

I'm very glad that you feel you are getting some value from this thread.
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