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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 722
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 10:04am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

I also took his post as an attempt at humor.
But mostly I was surprised that anybody besides Mark and I was reading this thread.

By the way, what is (f)0.17, a reference to patent law?
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,476
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 11:30am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

Well John, since you asked...

0.17 is the double-super-secret conversion constant for BRIX to %TDS.  I threw an (f) in front of it, because -- while Extractmojo might involve some very fancy coding -- none of the math involves anything more complicated than the four arithmetic operations and basic algebra.  As I understand it, the VST meter was originally designed to display BRIX, but includes the conversion constant as a function in its internal calculation so as report %TDS.  

I'd hoped the references to Fedele's infamous "Cease and Desist" e-mails, the classic Kobayashi film, and algebra did more than attempt humor, but achieved a light, literate irony.  Nothing funnier than a joke explained.  Now I want to cry.

Speaking of questions, whose hard feelings do you suppose Mark believes I was intending to provoke?  

Rich
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 722
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 12:32pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

boar_d_laze Said:

0.17 is the double-super-secret conversion constant for BRIX to %TDS.

Posted April 23, 2014 link

Where did you get that?

According to Alan Adler in this post, Randy Pope of Bunn correlated Brix readings from a refractometer to dehydration results and arrived at a conversion factor of 0.85 %TDS/%Brix. Vince Fedele in this post stated that 2.49g of sucrose in 100g of solution (i.e. 2.49% Brix) would read as 2.00% TDS in a VST refractometer at 20C. That implies the conversion factor would be 0.80 %TDS/%Brix. According to this web site a 2.00% Brix solution has an index of refraction which corresponds to ~1.62% TDS. That would imply a conversion factor of ~0.81 %TDS/%Brix.

So is it 0.80 or 0.85? I don't know, maybe it depends on the measurement temperature. It's possible that sugar and coffee have significantly different nD vs T curves.
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,036
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
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Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 12:53pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Speaking of questions, whose hard feelings do you suppose Mark believes I was intending to provoke?

Posted April 23, 2014 link

Now, that looks like a troll. Be a good boy and stay on topic. There. I've done my unbiased moderatorly duties. (This post is not intended to be a troll)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,036
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 12:58pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

jpender Said:

mostly I was surprised that anybody besides Mark and I was reading this thread

Posted April 23, 2014 link

Well, I am not actually reading it. I have taken five semesters of statistics courses and I still get lost in these calculations/ideas.

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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andys
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andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
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Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 3:28pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

jpender Said:

I understand very well what Mojo does

Posted April 22, 2014 link

jpender Said:

the brewing control chart (or Mojo equivalent) assumes that the liquid in the grounds should be excluded. If you use the chart for an immersion brew you'll get an extraction yield instead of the extraction and typically they differ by ~2-3%.

Posted April 22, 2014 link

Don't really want to get involved in your archaeological dig except to point out you actually DON'T understand what "Mojo" (now called Coffee Tools) does.

The liquid in the grounds is EXcluded in drip and espresso modes. The liquid in the grounds is INcluded for cupping and infusion modes. These modes are user-selected before proceeding with the brew analysis.

That's one reason (there are several others) why it's called a "Universal" Coffee Tools brew chart.

 
-AndyS
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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 722
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

andys Said:

Don't really want to get involved in your archaeological dig except to point out you actually DON'T understand what "Mojo" (now called Coffee Tools) does.

The liquid in the grounds is EXcluded in drip and espresso modes. The liquid in the grounds is INcluded for cupping and infusion modes. These modes are user-selected before proceeding with the brew analysis.

That's one reason (there are several others) why it's called a "Universal" Coffee Tools brew chart.

Posted April 23, 2014 link

No, I understand. It must be a communication failure on my part. What I was trying to say to Mark was that extraction in a percolator would need to be treated just like an immersion brew because the grounds contain full strength coffee.

In a nutshell: for drip the extraction is strength * beverage / dose and for immersion you replace beverage with the entire brew water. Nothing new there. The VST software since Mojo Pro appeared a couple of years ago also takes into account the moisture and CO2 in the bean and a bunch of other things as well.  I don't think knowing the math is what makes the software valuable any more than knowing how to add, subtract, multiply, etc is what makes a spreadsheet application valuable. If you gave me a set of inputs I could tell you what Coffee Tools will output. But the app does it automatically, seamlessly, with a graphical interface and allows you to save your work. If I were going to buy their refractometer I'd buy the software too -- especially since I think it only comes as a bundle now. Ha ha.
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ajf
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Posted Mon May 12, 2014, 11:21am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

boar_d_laze Said:

When using the US system of weight and volume, conveniently 1fl oz of water weighs (wait for it) 1oz.

Posted March 2, 2014 link

Actually, that is incorrect. If it was correct, then 1 US gallon of water (at the correct temperature) would weigh 8 lbs.  It actually weighs about 8.34 lbs

Alan
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TheCoffeePeople76
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TheCoffeePeople76
Joined: 5 May 2014
Posts: 18
Location: London,UK
Expertise: Pro Barista

Posted Thu May 15, 2014, 8:19pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

Keep it simple, start with 5g per 100ml or 2 tablespoons per 100ml , adjust according to taste.

With this 1000 ml would have 50 g

My ratio rule is (?)g per (?)ml

For a cold brew (using ice)

So 200 ml standard brew is 10 grams

But if ice melts it is 400ml so double the coffee grinds

Concentrate it like this = 10g per 100 ml

If ice melts and volume doubles then this is useful

Additional advice = longer extraction time needs coarser grind
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,476
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Fri May 16, 2014, 7:51am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

ajf Said:

Actually, that is incorrect. If it was correct, then 1 US gallon of water (at the correct temperature) would weigh 8 lbs.  It actually weighs about 8.34 lbs

Posted May 12, 2014 link

Hi Alan,

I thought I was well out of this thread as a participant until you dragged me back in.  But your post raises an issue about accuracy itself which is more interesting than the precision of any particular measurement, numerical statement, or calculation.      

If we're going to jump on the hamster wheel that is extreme accuracy in food-prep measurement, you must remember that water density varies with temperature, and adjust accordingly.  While you wrote "at the correct temperature," you failed apply the calculation.  

At brew temp of 92.0C, the density of water is 96.4% (rounded to three significant digits) of its density at a room temperature 20.0C; and room temp is the basis for your 8.34lbs number. As you can calculate, 96.4% of 8.34 = 8.04 (rounded); and as you can also calculate, a conversion constant, "k," of 1.00 ounce fl vol water = 1.00 ounce weight (a conversion which I provided at an expressed accuracy of only one significant digit, btw) at brew temp is only off by a mere 0.502% (rounded); and we can probably agree that one half of 1% -- rounded or extrapolated to any level of accuracy -- is trivial in this context.  

Which brings us to the teachable aspect... Chasing measurement accuracy for most things coffee doesn't further progress towards the goal of brewing it better.  It's usually rather more of a distraction.  

Rich
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