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barkingburro
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barkingburro
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 214
Location: Irvine, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Vac Pot: Trifecta MB, CafeSolo,...
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:41am
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

CoffeeRoastersClub Said:

I have never been to an SCAA Certification process to state with specificity whether or not humans do a taste test.  However I can state that their testing requirements are quite stringent:

SCAA's Minimum Certification Requirements for Coffee Brewers
http://www.scaa.org/?page=cert2

   Coffee Volume:
   The volume of the brew basket must be sized in proportion to the beverage receiver's maximum capacity as stipulated by the manufacturer.Minimum technical requirement is for brew basket capacity to accommodate the nominal weight of coffee (proportionate to 55 grams per liter) without overflowing from the basket due to the swelling of the coffee grounds during the brew cycle. This allowance should be about 50% of the bed depth of the coffee. Best results in uniformity of extraction are obtained with coffee bed depths between 2.5 and 5.0 cm.
   Brewing Time:
   The coffee brewer must be able to cycle the gross water volume through the coffee grounds within the prescribed amount of time. Minimum technical requirement is for the water contact time with the coffee grounds to be more than 2 minutes but less than 8 minutes for all brewers operating under standard temperature and pressure at the manufacturers stated design voltage. Under no circumstances will water contact times in excess of 8 minutes be acceptable in meeting the certification requirements.
   Brewing Temperature:
   The coffee brewer must be able to cycle the gross water volume through the coffee grounds within the prescribed temperature range.Minimum technical requirement is for the water temperature at the point the water contacts the coffee grounds to remain no lower than 92 degrees C and no higher than 96 degrees C during 90% of the brew cycle. Measurement of brewing temperatures will be made by using an RTD (Resistive Temperature Device) placed at the top and in the center of the bed of coffee in the brew basket.
   Beverage Preparation:
   The coffee brewer must be able to produce a beverage with the prescribed range of solubles concentration and solubles yield. Minimum technical requirement is for an Actual Net Beverage Strength between 1.15% to 1.35% resulting from an Actual Absolute Extraction between 18.0% to 22.0% from the nominal weight of coffee in the brew basket, as determined by the refractometer method. The grind of the coffee will be adjusted for the water contact time of the brewer in order to achieve these results wherever possible.
   Uniformity of Extraction:
   Brewers will receive a Quality/Performance Index Rating based on the average uniformity of extraction factor as determined by the "Agtron/SCAA Uniformity of Extraction Procedures" (1997) for the nominal weight of coffee at a medium roast color used for the maximum gross water volume capacity of the brewer as stated by the manufacturer. The rating number is calculated by comparing residual soluble solids in the outside, middle, and inside areas of the wet coffee grounds in the brew basket. The result is multiplied by 100 to convert the percentage to a whole number.

   The Index Rating is 0 - 100, with 100 indicating perfect uniformity of extraction. An average uniformity rating number of 60 would be considered "good," a rating number above 75 would be considered "excellent," and a rating number above 90 would be "outstanding." All ratings below 60 would be listed as "needs improvement."
   Beverage Clarity:
   Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be calculate based on the amount of undissolved solids remaining on a 0.9 micron Boro-Sillicate filter used in the dehydration analysis. Minimum technical standard is brewer to produce fewer than 75 milligrams per 100 milliliters of brewed coffee.
   Holding Temperature: The container that receives the coffee after brewing must accommodate the quantity of coffee for which the brewing equipment is designed at the gross water volume capacity designated by the manufacture and maintain the temperature of the brewed coffee at the correct holding temperature. Minimum technical requirement is for the beverage receiver to maintain the temperature of the coffee no lower than 80 degrees C and no higher than 85 degrees C during the first thirty (30) minutes of the holding time.


Testing Procedures:

   Coffee: Evaluations of minimum technical requirements in beverage preparation will be made using coffees in the medium roast color range (Agtron/SCAA #55 roast color tile). In addition beverage evaluations will also be made using coffees in the dart roast color range (Agtron/SCAA #35 roast color tile).
   Water: Fresh, cold water between 18 and 20 degrees Celsius (C), containing a baseline dissolved mineral content of 150 ppm (0.150%) with a tolerance of 20 ppm (+/- 0.20%), and a pH of 7.0 (+/- 0.5) will be used in all of the brew testing.
   Coffee to Water Ratios: Evaluations of minimum technical requirements in beverage preparation will be made using the nominal weight of coffee specified by the SCAA Coffee Brewing Control Chart (55 grams of coffee per liter of water) for the actual maximum gross water volume rating of the brewer, as specified by the manufacturer. In addition beverage evaluations will be made using any minimum gross water volume recommended by the manufacturer and also using the European coffee to water ratio standard of 65 grams per liter for both maximum and minimum grow water volumes.
   Water Supply: For plumbed-in units, the water pressure will be controlled by a pressure regulator to maintain the minimum pressure designated by the manufacturer.
   Uniformity of Performance: Minimum technical requirement evaluations will be based on the average value of those measurements taken during three (3) consecutive brew cycles.

========

Current SCAA Certified Home Brewers:

   Technivorm Moccamaster
   Lance Larkin BE 112 Brew Express
   Bunn HG Home Brewer
   Bonavita 8 Cup Exceptional Brew Coffee Maker with glass or thermal carafe

========

Len

Posted September 20, 2013 link

And your point is... ?

 
- Michael
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CoffeeRoastersClub
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CoffeeRoastersClub
Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 4,563
Location: Connecticut
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vintage La Pavoni Lever...
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Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:51am
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

barkingburro Said:

And your point is... ?

Posted September 20, 2013 link

I guess my point is that you will never see the iCoffee displayed at a Seattle Coffee Gear or Chris's Coffee; likely in the discount isle at Walmart being perused by people with their ass cracks showing.

Len

 
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

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barkingburro
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barkingburro
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 214
Location: Irvine, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Vac Pot: Trifecta MB, CafeSolo,...
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:15pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

CoffeeRoastersClub Said:

I guess my point is that you will never see the iCoffee displayed at a Seattle Coffee Gear or Chris's Coffee; likely in the discount isle at Walmart being perused by people with their ass cracks showing.

Len

Posted September 20, 2013 link

Ok, as long as you weren't actually trying to infer quality of brew from lack of SCAA Certification.

I agree that their marketing appears to miss the Third Wave, or card-carrying SCAA member, or coffeegeek demographic.  I'll even go so far as to say the product may not necessarily compete, tastewise, at that level.  But there is an anomaly the erstwhile naysayers have not only failed to address, but appear to be in some denial about.  The product appears to do very well, flavorwise, and may appeal to a broad spectrum of consumers.  It may be capable of running circles around every drip brewer for the average consumer.  All you have to do is feed it coffee of the non-specialty kind, perhaps not care about fruitiness or acidity, etc.  Potentially, that alone could be a big deal.  Geek newsworthy, even.

 
- Michael
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rmongiovi
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Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Ditting KR805
Drip: Technivorm; Bonavita...
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 1:37pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

Golly, I didn't realize we were supposed to take this thing seriously.  Ok....

In the description of his "ah ha!" moment, the inventor states: "While enjoying one of my favorite meals of grilled chicken, steamed rice and vegetables, I remembered all of the research that proved steaming is the best way to unlock the full flavors of food without destroying all of the nutrients."

So, let's think about this for a moment.  The reason steam is the best way to cook vegetables is because you *eat* the vegetables, so any nutrients washed out of the vegetables by cooking them in water is lost nutrition (unless you drink the pot likker, but even then there's oxidation to take into account).  Using less water to cook equals more nutrients in the veggies equals happier me.  What I need for my vegetables is a good way to apply heat without washing out anything I want to keep.

I don't eat my coffee beans (unless they're chocolate covered).  I use water to *purposefully* dissolve chemicals out of the beans so that I can throw the beans away and drink the water.  Steam is not an improvement to that process.  In fact, it's too hot so if it has any effect I'd expect it to be negative.  The range of temperatures which are most conducive to dissolving the chemicals I want out of the bean and leaving behind the chemicals I don't want has been explored, and my understanding is that this process is most effective in the 195 to 205 degrees fahrenheit range.  212 degree steam is right out.

So, can I make fun of it now?
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barkingburro
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barkingburro
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 214
Location: Irvine, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Vac Pot: Trifecta MB, CafeSolo,...
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 1:49pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

Spoken like a true engineer.

Which reminds me, remember when all those engineers denied that their bridges could collapse from simple resonance?   Me neither.  But the point is, when a bridge did collapse, the proof was in the collapse itself,  the rubble,  the real world result.

I encounter this kind of dogma vs. reality in high end audio all the time.  There are those who say a component sounds better,  and then there are those who only believe in what they can measure.

 
- Michael
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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 719
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 4:50pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

rmongiovi Said:

Steam is not an improvement to that process.  In fact, it's too hot so if it has any effect I'd expect it to be negative.  The range of temperatures which are most conducive to dissolving the chemicals I want out of the bean and leaving behind the chemicals I don't want has been explored, and my understanding is that this process is most effective in the 195 to 205 degrees fahrenheit range.  212 degree steam is right out.

Posted September 20, 2013 link

Roy, can you explain in detail how the iCoffee works?

I've seen mention of an initial steaming of the grounds but I think you're wrong to assume that means the temperature is 212F. The other thing I've read is that there are jets of water, possibly with steam, that are used to agitate the coffee. That sounds a little like what the Alpha Dominiche machine does.

Somebody should just go buy one and try it.
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scarrz
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Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Posts: 11
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 7:48pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

jpender Said:

Roy, can you explain in detail how the iCoffee works?

I've seen mention of an initial steaming of the grounds but I think you're wrong to assume that means the temperature is 212F. The other thing I've read is that there are jets of water, possibly with steam, that are used to agitate the coffee. That sounds a little like what the Alpha Dominiche machine does.

Somebody should just go buy one and try it.

Posted September 20, 2013 link

I actually picked one up to try. Current technivorm owner for 7+ years. I will state for the record I did not peruse through Walmart with my ass crack showing. ;). Sorry....I think it's one thing to be opinionated, but that comment was borderline arrogant. I also would add as someone who states in their profile as being an Inventor they might be a little more open minded on new products.

Just had two pots from it thus far and want to give it a run through before reporting back.
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jbviau
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jbviau
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Preciso / LIDOs
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Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 8:20pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

jpender Said:

I've seen mention of an initial steaming of the grounds but I think you're wrong to assume that means the temperature is 212F.

Posted September 20, 2013 link

FWIW I asked via Twitter and got this response: https://twitter.com/iCoffee/status/361951647733264384
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CoffeeRoastersClub
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CoffeeRoastersClub
Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 4,563
Location: Connecticut
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vintage La Pavoni Lever...
Grinder: Breville Smartgrind,...
Vac Pot: Vintage Silex, Nicro...
Drip: Technivorm Moccamaster...
Roaster: javaPRO-CRC AIR Fluid Bed...
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:09pm
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

jbviau Said:

FWIW I asked via Twitter and got this response: https://twitter.com/iCoffee/status/361951647733264384

Posted September 20, 2013 link

More on the steaming process:  Here is a long interview with the CEO of iCoffee where he talks about it steaming coffee grounds causing them to "puff up like rice being steamed" and additionally causing the "bean to fracture".  Also his statement that the iCoffee produces a "rich rich coffee crema":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7WSJicMqE

The guy is either ridiculously uneducated on proper use of coffee terminology, or intentionally creating a marketing position geared toward the ignorant masses.  I am banking on the latter being that the $$$ backer is stated to be Remington.

Len

 
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

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barkingburro
Senior Member
barkingburro
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 214
Location: Irvine, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Vac Pot: Trifecta MB, CafeSolo,...
Posted Sat Sep 21, 2013, 4:02am
Subject: Re: New kind of machine!
 

CoffeeRoastersClub Said:

The guy is either ridiculously uneducated on proper use of coffee terminology, or intentionally creating a marketing position geared toward the ignorant masses.  I am banking on the latter being that the $$$ backer is stated to be Remington.

Len

Posted September 20, 2013 link


Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 
- Michael
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