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Discussions > Coffee > Machines > I need it strong...  
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 4:56am
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 9:07am
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

MWJB Said:

Why does an Aeropress require more coffee (dry dose per cup/portion) than drip (55-70g/l)/espresso (200-500g/l)/stovetop (~140g/l)? Surely, you decide the dose & vary technique to get the strength/yield you want?

Posted September 12, 2013 link

I didn't state it explicitly but I was implying that you'd need more coffee to produce the same size cup of coffee at the same strength and extraction.

For a percolation method the extraction is determined solely by the strength and quantity of the coffee in the cup. It is equivalent to the yield. For an infusion method the extraction is determined by the strength and quantity of all of the liquid in both the cup and the grounds. It is greater than the yield.

So the amount and concentration of the liquid in the grounds subtracts from the yield in an infusion method. If you're making a 12oz mug of coffee at typical strength you might need a few extra grams of coffee beans for infusion versus drip. What is that, an extra 15?

The difference between French press and Aeropress relates to two things. First, for a 12oz mug you would typically need to make a concentrate in the Aeropress which you later dilute to desired strength. Since the liquid trapped in the grounds is more concentrated than in a French press (where you brew at final strength) this tends to decrease coffee bean efficiency in the Aeropress. However, more liquid is usually left behind in a French press, which favors the efficiency of the Aeropress. How this balances determines which would require more coffee beans for that cup. I think the Aeropress actually would win more often, but the difference is small. We're talking about pennies per cup.

Now granted, you might not make the same size and strength cup with different methods. You might even tend towards different extraction levels. So it is a bit apples and oranges to compare different brew methods in this way. But in any case the cost differential is small unless you're buying very expensive coffee or drinking a lot of it. I figure it costs me an extra 18/day (4 extra grams/day at $20/lb) in coffee beans to use my Aeropress instead of a Melitta cone. I can deal with that.
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 9:28am
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:37am
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

MWJB Said:

"So the amount and concentration of the liquid in the grounds subtracts from the yield in an infusion method." It doesn't subtract from the "yield", it subtracts from the total dissolution. The "yield", to my mind at least (just the way I see it, not dictating what it is), is what you get in the cup/carafe after decanting/separating the beverage from the grinds. At low brew ratios a steeped brew may be marginally stronger at 22% total dissolution, than a 19% extraction yield at the same ratio (say 50g/l). Because of the larger absorbtion of the dose, higher brew ratios (over 65g/l) may be lower TDS for a steep at 22% total dissolution, than a percolation extraction yield at 19%?

Posted September 12, 2013 link

Definitions. By "yield" I meant "extraction yield", the TDS per initial coffee that makes it into the cup.

Let's write it out instead of just using words.

dose = initial coffee grounds
cup = amount of coffee in cup
retained = coffee trapped in grounds or in brew device
tds = total dissolved solids
%tds = strength

For percolation:  extraction = tds/dose = cup*%tds/dose
For immersion:  extraction = tds/dose = (cup+retained)*%tds/dose

Solving for the dose you can easily see the difference:

percolation_dose = cup*%tds/extraction
immersion_dose = (cup+retained)*%tds/extraction = (percolation_dose) + retained*%tds/extraction

Let's say you want to brew 350g of coffee at 1.3% and 19% extraction.
For a percolation method your dose would be 23.9g.
For an infusion method it would be 23.9g + 6.8%*retained_liquid

If the retained liquid in a French press were about twice the weight of the dose this would be roughly 50g of liquid.
6.8% of that is about 3g, which is approximately the amount of extra coffee you'd need.

With an Aeropress the retained liquid ratio is lower, but you'd also need to brew a concentrate.
If you do the math you'll find that the Aeropress would be slightly more efficient in this instance.
That is, the AP would be slightly more efficient than the press but not as efficient as a pour over.
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:16pm
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

By taste, my steeped brews are more like 22% total dissolution at the sweet spot, more for CCD after draw down.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 1:19pm
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

We're getting way off topic now for Brandi, who wants the simplicity of pod brewing but the taste of manual methods. I don't know what to suggest to her so I'll stick to chatting with you, MWJB.

MWJB Said:

1.3% TDS at 68g/l = 19% total dissolution & 16.5% yield. How can this be the ideal yield, if 19% is also the ideal yield? They cannot be beverages that stand up to meaningful comparison?

By taste, my steeped brews are more like 22% total dissolution at the sweet spot, more for CCD after draw down.

Posted September 12, 2013 link

I didn't invent the idea that extraction for immersion (aka total dissolution) equates tastewise to extraction yield for percolation. It can't be an exact equality and the notion is certainly open to debate. But it is better than comparing yields, particularly at higher coffee to water ratios as is common in the Aeropress. The idea came about from Alan Adler, Steve Padilla, and also from Vince Fedele because it was noticed that infusions tended to taste best at extraction yields that were low compared to the accepted 18-22% range for drip and espresso.

I don't know how to respond to your stated preference for 22% extraction infusions. It's on the higher side and it isn't what I like. So either our methods are different, our coffee is different, our tastes are different, or some combination of these. It is nice that you don't have to cough up the 10 per cup for extra coffee that I do.

Could you detail a typical infusion recipe that you use to produce coffee that tastes best to you at 22% total dissolution?
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Netphilosopher
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 2:32pm
Subject: ...
 

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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Thu Sep 12, 2013, 4:15pm
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

Netphilosopher Said:

Technically, nobody "invents" a theory. They "discover" one.  ;-D

A natural phenomenon is something that is discovered, and cannot be patented.  Doesn't keep people from trying, though (to patent - people are always trying to discover new things).

Posted September 12, 2013 link

You're right, invent is the wrong word to use here.

But I disagree that theories are discovered. Natural phenomena are discovered but theories are initially proposals that are then developed and tested to see if what they predict is correct. Since a theory is falsifiable it is possible that one is, in fact, false. And if a theory is false how could it be "discovered"?
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 2:24am
Subject: Re: I need it strong and I need it fast and neat.
 

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Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Sep 13, 2013, 4:36am
Subject: ...
 

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