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Pour Overs All The Same ??
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steelgtr
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Posted Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:58pm
Subject: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

I know they are not but it sure seems simple; a cone with a hole that you control the temp, grind, pour time, etc.  I know the clever cup? lets you close off the bottom for a longer saturation but besides that how much does the Chemex (except for it's special filter) and the Hario and the Mellita differ from each other?

thx

bob
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squaremile
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Joined: 6 Jan 2011
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Posted Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:17pm
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

They are pretty different actually. One reason is due to how many and how large the holes are. Having one or multiple small holes (beehouse, wave, melita) compared to a really large one (v60 or chemex) changes the flow rate entirely. The filter paper for each also makes a huge difference, and each has their own tradeoffs with body and clarity.
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 188
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Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
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Posted Tue Jul 16, 2013, 4:52am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

I'd only go for the Hario if I had a pouring kettle, though it would be a good idea with other brewers too. Clever Dripper does not need a pouring kettle, unless you are using it as a straight pourover (valve open throughout). Clever Dripper will work with just about any grind & can be used to steep, pourover, or a long pre-wet then fill & drain.

Apart from the Kalita Wave, papers can be substituted in the various cones at a pinch. What you choose to do with the various brewers (paper, grind, brew ratio, pour technique) will have the biggest effect on outcome.
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al_bongo
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Posted Tue Jul 16, 2013, 7:35am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

Clearly technique is a factor but in order of preference I would rate Kalita Wave, Chemex/Melitta equal second and Hario V60 4th

I like the Kalita Wave because it seems to me most like a fresh quality coffee that you'd get from a Fetco or other commercial machine - well balanced subtle flavours. It does require a pour over kettle but it is easily the most consistent and forgiving of technique of all the pour over methods.

The Chemex is capable of a great coffee too, but if it takes even 30s longer than 4 mins it goes from great to a bit over extracted. The Melitta is also very grind dependant.

The Chemex is to my palette fuller bodied with less of the subtle flavours than with the Kalita and Melitta. Think this may be to do with the thicker filter papers.

The Hario for me is a poor 4th. It is capable of a good coffee. But I find using it very hit or miss. I personally find it quite similar to the Chemex in flavour although it uses a much finer grind. Many of the coffee shops use the Hario to good effect and with good consistency but what I dislike about it is most places use a techninque which involves using more coffee to allow for the fact that for speed much of the coffee is left on the sides of the filter rather than fully and evenly extracted.

The Kalita especially solves this 'high and dry' problem in that it's quite difficult to use this and get the typical 'V' shape that to me indicates a poor extraction. With both the Chemex and the Melitta you can alter your pour or stir to achieve a flat evenly extracted bed of coffee.
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MWJB
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Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
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Posted Tue Jul 16, 2013, 8:18am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

al_bongo Said:

The Chemex is to my palette fuller bodied with less of the subtle flavours than with the Kalita and Melitta. Think this may be to do with the thicker filter papers.

Posted July 16, 2013 link

The Chemex paper is thicker, but the weave is more open & the Chemex leaves more "in" than the other papers, rather than takes more "out".

Secondary filter some already extracted coffee through the differing papers and I'll bet you that the coffee filtered through a Chemex paper tastes most like the original brew.

The Kalita Wave bleached papers seem to focus the sweetness.

If the Hario tastes better at higher brew ratios (something I also tend to find), why not use it with those ratios? They're probably still broadly within the SCAE range.
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steelgtr
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Joined: 29 Jun 2013
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Espresso: Saeco
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Posted Tue Jul 16, 2013, 8:20am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

al_bongo Said:

Clearly technique is a factor but in order of preference I would rate Kalita Wave, Chemex/Melitta equal second and Hario V60 4th

I like the Kalita Wave because it seems to me most like a fresh quality coffee that you'd get from a Fetco or other commercial machine - well balanced subtle flavours. It does require a pour over kettle but it is easily the most consistent and forgiving of technique of all the pour over methods.

The Chemex is capable of a great coffee too, but if it takes even 30s longer than 4 mins it goes from great to a bit over extracted. The Melitta is also very grind dependant.

The Chemex is to my palette fuller bodied with less of the subtle flavours than with the Kalita and Melitta. Think this may be to do with the thicker filter papers.

The Hario for me is a poor 4th. It is capable of a good coffee. But I find using it very hit or miss. I personally find it quite similar to the Chemex in flavour although it uses a much finer grind. Many of the coffee shops use the Hario to good effect and with good consistency but what I dislike about it is most places use a techninque which involves using more coffee to allow for the fact that for speed much of the coffee is left on the sides of the filter rather than fully and evenly extracted.

The Kalita especially solves this 'high and dry' problem in that it's quite difficult to use this and get the typical 'V' shape that to me indicates a poor extraction. With both the Chemex and the Melitta you can alter your pour or stir to achieve a flat evenly extracted bed of coffee.

Posted July 16, 2013 link

I like how slow the Kalita seems to drip;

http://kalita-usa.com/wave_series.html

We like strong robust but not bitter coffee.

bob
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Intrepid510
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Joined: 30 Dec 2010
Posts: 355
Location: California
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Posted Tue Jul 16, 2013, 11:21am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

They are all a little bit different in terms of preperation and variations of taste as dictated by the coffee bed. If you have the right tool any of those cones is going to produce good coffee. Like espresso machines, your least important factor in many of these is going to be the dripper itself.

Just be sure you have a good grinder, and a pouring kettle.

 
Less water, more grounds.
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steelgtr
Senior Member


Joined: 29 Jun 2013
Posts: 109
Location: San Jose
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Saeco
Grinder: Baratza Encore
Drip: TV Moccamaster/ glass
Roaster: WB Air Crazy/ Sifter
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 6:41am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

al_bongo Said:

Clearly technique is a factor but in order of preference I would rate Kalita Wave, Chemex/Melitta equal second and Hario V60 4th

I like the Kalita Wave because it seems to me most like a fresh quality coffee that you'd get from a Fetco or other commercial machine - well balanced subtle flavours. It does require a pour over kettle but it is easily the most consistent and forgiving of technique of all the pour over methods.

The Chemex is capable of a great coffee too, but if it takes even 30s longer than 4 mins it goes from great to a bit over extracted. The Melitta is also very grind dependant.

The Chemex is to my palette fuller bodied with less of the subtle flavours than with the Kalita and Melitta. Think this may be to do with the thicker filter papers.

The Hario for me is a poor 4th. It is capable of a good coffee. But I find using it very hit or miss. I personally find it quite similar to the Chemex in flavour although it uses a much finer grind. Many of the coffee shops use the Hario to good effect and with good consistency but what I dislike about it is most places use a techninque which involves using more coffee to allow for the fact that for speed much of the coffee is left on the sides of the filter rather than fully and evenly extracted.

The Kalita especially solves this 'high and dry' problem in that it's quite difficult to use this and get the typical 'V' shape that to me indicates a poor extraction. With both the Chemex and the Melitta you can alter your pour or stir to achieve a flat evenly extracted bed of coffee.

Posted July 16, 2013 link

Where can you buy the Kalita, especially the "system". Seems out of stock at a lot of places?

bob
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steelgtr
Senior Member


Joined: 29 Jun 2013
Posts: 109
Location: San Jose
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Saeco
Grinder: Baratza Encore
Drip: TV Moccamaster/ glass
Roaster: WB Air Crazy/ Sifter
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 6:49am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

Intrepid510 Said:

They are all a little bit different in terms of preperation and variations of taste as dictated by the coffee bed. If you have the right tool any of those cones is going to produce good coffee. Like espresso machines, your least important factor in many of these is going to be the dripper itself.

Just be sure you have a good grinder, and a pouring kettle.

Posted July 16, 2013 link

Speaking of grinder, what is the consensus of grind size for pour over?  A lot of the videos i saw looked really coarse ground and the results looked pretty weak!

bob
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al_bongo
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Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 453
Location: Scotland
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Starbucks Barista
Grinder: Solis 166/Iberital MC2
Vac Pot: Cona
Drip: Chemex/Melitta
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:37am
Subject: Re: Pour Overs All The Same ??
 

Wrecking Ball coffee had a good vid and should be a stockist. I'm in the UK so can't really help much with suppliers. G&B coffee in LA also use the Kalita and it's largely their technique I try to recreate.

There is unfortunately not a universal grind for all the different pour overs. My technique for the Kalita is to use a coarse press pot grind ~900microns which probably corresponds to 22-23 on a Baratza Virtuoso.

I use 34g of coffee to 578g water ( standard 17:1 ratio) I aim for the water to finish draining at the 4 minute mark  (this includes the 30s "bloom").

The coffee is by no means weak, coarser grind requires longer contact time so you need a decent kettle to slow the pour to allow for 4 mins of contact time.

I think this replicates the brew cycle of good drip coffee makers but with a smaller volume of brew. I don't want a litre of coffee basically.
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